Get Over Jaguar !
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 57
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From: Close to the Arctic Circle
If you need it explained, you won't get it anyway...
As for the Har Force's ability to sustain ops in 'stan, it's probably best not to pursue that route too far on t'interweb!
Last edited by engoal; 24th June 2007 at 22:13.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,395
Likes: 0
From: earth
Whilst I understand the rhetoric here I think the idea that the Jaguar was not a useful weapon in our armoury right to the end is wrong and shows a deal of ignorance of modern air power.
We have only a pitiful number of weapons systems capable of deployment of air-to-ground weapons - such a small number in fact that we should really abandon all global ambitions of projecting power. The loss of even one of these aircraft is lamentable but to lose the last squadron from a force so capable and professional should cause us all to worry seriously about a government that refuses to put its' money where its' mouth is.
We have only a pitiful number of weapons systems capable of deployment of air-to-ground weapons - such a small number in fact that we should really abandon all global ambitions of projecting power. The loss of even one of these aircraft is lamentable but to lose the last squadron from a force so capable and professional should cause us all to worry seriously about a government that refuses to put its' money where its' mouth is.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,398
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Quite so.
Absolutely outrageous that the Jag has been taken out of service so prematurely, given that the EuropHoon is some way off achieving anything like the Jaguar's present day air-to-ground capability.
We have a morally bankrupt government which continues to demand more and more from less and less, yet refuses adequate funding to support its own 'interventionist' aspirations.
When will it all implode?
Absolutely outrageous that the Jag has been taken out of service so prematurely, given that the EuropHoon is some way off achieving anything like the Jaguar's present day air-to-ground capability.
We have a morally bankrupt government which continues to demand more and more from less and less, yet refuses adequate funding to support its own 'interventionist' aspirations.
When will it all implode?
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,236
Likes: 80
From: Just behind the back of beyond....
Even if one were willing to accept the 'capability holiday' caused by retiring three Jaguar squadrons before the Typhoon can shoulder the burden, there's still the worry about the longer term. Four Harrier squadrons are supposed to serve on until at least 2017, when JSF will START to replace them on the frontline.
The Harrier's can't last that long without spending billions. Using the same pool of Harrier airframes, and hours, to support two or three squadrons would have made it possible, using the Harriers where only a Harrier would do.
Jaguars would have provided a useful means of saving wear and tear on the Harrier, and of spreading the load and overstretch.
The Indians are still building Jaguars and they're estimating a cost of $24 m per jet, with the latest avionics, etc.
The Harrier's can't last that long without spending billions. Using the same pool of Harrier airframes, and hours, to support two or three squadrons would have made it possible, using the Harriers where only a Harrier would do.
Jaguars would have provided a useful means of saving wear and tear on the Harrier, and of spreading the load and overstretch.
The Indians are still building Jaguars and they're estimating a cost of $24 m per jet, with the latest avionics, etc.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: Wilts
Well there has been some complete horse!!!! written on this one - I suspect lots of the anti stuff by people that have never had any contact with the jet. It was a most capable platform which went on to become a superb test bed for lots of the 'new' kit...HMS, IDM, AMLCD etc etc. Considering the French input it was remarkably simple to work on with some highly reliable systems.
This was initially designed and built as a fast jet trainer ac - which went on to become one of the RAFs most 'loved' by those of us lucky enough to work with it.
This was initially designed and built as a fast jet trainer ac - which went on to become one of the RAFs most 'loved' by those of us lucky enough to work with it.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 536
Likes: 71
From: Overseas
Jacko,
The only problem is that the Jag can't do the job that the Harrier is doing. I don't know where you get these figures of "billions" of pounds to keep the Harriers flying either, especially as these days you could buy the entire RAF for a billion or two.......................
Sad to see the Jag go though, it really was the last gentleman's flying club we had
The only problem is that the Jag can't do the job that the Harrier is doing. I don't know where you get these figures of "billions" of pounds to keep the Harriers flying either, especially as these days you could buy the entire RAF for a billion or two.......................
Sad to see the Jag go though, it really was the last gentleman's flying club we had
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Lincs
Jealousy
I can't believe that Finger Poking is actually on a Sqn.
I suspect that he (or she, brother) might well reside at Coningsby (but, I'll wager, has never accepted the Sqn's open invite to make the arduous trip around the peri track and stop by for a coffee) and just plain hates to see people have the sort pride in themselves and their unit that he (must be a he - too unbalanced to be a girl) has obviously never encountered.
How close am I FP?
I suspect that he (or she, brother) might well reside at Coningsby (but, I'll wager, has never accepted the Sqn's open invite to make the arduous trip around the peri track and stop by for a coffee) and just plain hates to see people have the sort pride in themselves and their unit that he (must be a he - too unbalanced to be a girl) has obviously never encountered.
How close am I FP?
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,236
Likes: 80
From: Just behind the back of beyond....
Late Arm Live,
Of course.
The Jaguar could not do some of what a Harrier could. It was never suggested that it should REPLACE the Harrier.
The Jag was:
Never going to go on a boat.
Never going to carry some of the weapons.
Never going to be as good hot and high.
But it was able to do enough to allow it to have been a useful relief for the Harrier and to keep the Harrier going.
Years ago, before the present unpleasantness, and before the present operational tempo and utilisation, and when JFH hours were being spread over FA2 as well as GR7, the IPT estimated a huge number of rear fuselage replacements would be required to see the jet through to its planned OSD.
With other age and fatigue related programmes you're looking at vast amounts of money.
Of course.
The Jaguar could not do some of what a Harrier could. It was never suggested that it should REPLACE the Harrier.
The Jag was:
Never going to go on a boat.
Never going to carry some of the weapons.
Never going to be as good hot and high.
But it was able to do enough to allow it to have been a useful relief for the Harrier and to keep the Harrier going.
Years ago, before the present unpleasantness, and before the present operational tempo and utilisation, and when JFH hours were being spread over FA2 as well as GR7, the IPT estimated a huge number of rear fuselage replacements would be required to see the jet through to its planned OSD.
With other age and fatigue related programmes you're looking at vast amounts of money.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,398
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
They certainly did:
But that was on the Clemenceau - a proper sized aircraft carrier. Not one of those little 'through deck cruisers' of the RN.....
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 129
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From: Bournemouth
Double Zero:
"Exactly what payload did the Jaguar carry ?"
with drop tanks - 4 x 1000lb HE bombs, equivalent roughly to 8 x 500lb as carried by a lot of US stuff. An underwing picture of, say, an F18 with 8 x 500lb bombs looks impressive, if it could carry them
or,
with drop tanks - 1 x LGB centreline station
or,
minus drop tanks 2 x LGB inboard wing pylons + 1 centreline
or,
minus drop tanks and with inboard wing tandem beam carriers, 8 x 1000lb HE, which roughly equals 16 x 500 pounders - how many aeroplanes apart from big bombers can carry 16 x 500 pounders?
or,
two drop tanks and one nameless centreline weapon
and,
always two guns
Avoid flak - don't post any more silly quesions. There are many people here who have either flown it or worked on it.
JP
"Exactly what payload did the Jaguar carry ?"
with drop tanks - 4 x 1000lb HE bombs, equivalent roughly to 8 x 500lb as carried by a lot of US stuff. An underwing picture of, say, an F18 with 8 x 500lb bombs looks impressive, if it could carry them
or,
with drop tanks - 1 x LGB centreline station
or,
minus drop tanks 2 x LGB inboard wing pylons + 1 centreline
or,
minus drop tanks and with inboard wing tandem beam carriers, 8 x 1000lb HE, which roughly equals 16 x 500 pounders - how many aeroplanes apart from big bombers can carry 16 x 500 pounders?
or,
two drop tanks and one nameless centreline weapon
and,
always two guns
Avoid flak - don't post any more silly quesions. There are many people here who have either flown it or worked on it.
JP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: 250 ft agl
You can always buy your own for posterity...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ex-RAF-Jaguar-...QQcmdZViewItem
SMT
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ex-RAF-Jaguar-...QQcmdZViewItem
SMT
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,398
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
What utter wanquerre came up with the stupid term 'capability holiday'?
In the last year or so, the UK has lost:
Sea Harrier (radar equipped naval fighter) - replaced by.....nothing
PR9 (high/low level photo recce platform) - replaced by.....nothing
Jaguar (strike fighter/bomber) - replaced by.....nothing
Who on earth is in charge of such lunacy? It's not as though we're living in particularly peaceful times and can afford to lose such assets.
In the last year or so, the UK has lost:
Sea Harrier (radar equipped naval fighter) - replaced by.....nothing
PR9 (high/low level photo recce platform) - replaced by.....nothing
Jaguar (strike fighter/bomber) - replaced by.....nothing
Who on earth is in charge of such lunacy? It's not as though we're living in particularly peaceful times and can afford to lose such assets.