Vulcan rocketry!
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Vulcan rocketry!
I was looking through a Vulcan B1 manual today (no really!) and I noticed that on the engineer's panel there are some switches for RATOG functions.
Now, I know the Victor and Valiant flew trials with DH Sprite RATOG pods but the Vulcan supposedly didn't. Certainly there have never been any photographs to suggest otherwise.
Anyone know if the RATOG gear was ever actually fitted for trials?
Now, I know the Victor and Valiant flew trials with DH Sprite RATOG pods but the Vulcan supposedly didn't. Certainly there have never been any photographs to suggest otherwise.
Anyone know if the RATOG gear was ever actually fitted for trials?
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 10th Jun 2007 at 15:16.
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Photos on that link confirm what I found in the manual - the switches were there but presumably no gear was ever actually carried. I waded-through all the Avro archive photos and never saw anything, so unless anyone can prove otherwise, I think we can conclude that the switchery was built-in, in anticipation of RATOG being fitted, but then it was subsequently abandoned...
...unless anyone knows differently?
...unless anyone knows differently?
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Tim,
On the keypublishing link there was a suggestion that the Vulcan's had difficulty getting off the ground in Ascension.
From my experience in Aden and Butterworth a fully armed and fuelled Vulcan on unrestricted power had a ground roll of about 4500 feet. In contrast, at Butterworth a Victor 1 had a ground roll of about 8050 feet. The runway was slightly shorter than this
As for Black Buck, from the horses mouth so to speak:
"Apart from a failure to pressurise I do not remember any problems getting a Vulcan airborne., I expect the Victors would have appreciated RATOG more."
On the keypublishing link there was a suggestion that the Vulcan's had difficulty getting off the ground in Ascension.
From my experience in Aden and Butterworth a fully armed and fuelled Vulcan on unrestricted power had a ground roll of about 4500 feet. In contrast, at Butterworth a Victor 1 had a ground roll of about 8050 feet. The runway was slightly shorter than this
As for Black Buck, from the horses mouth so to speak:
"Apart from a failure to pressurise I do not remember any problems getting a Vulcan airborne., I expect the Victors would have appreciated RATOG more."
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It does seem like a rather odd notion, as I've never heard of any instances where the Vulcan has ever been regarded as anything other than over-powered. Perhaps the Ascension comment comes from too many people reading that "607" paperback which does rather over-hype everything. Although I haven't read every line in that book (is it me, or is it too turgid?), I would think that somewhere in the text the author will have suggested that the Vulcan literally scraped off Ascension's runway with inches to spare... or something like that!
As for RATOG, I guess we have to assume that it was never more than a plan which resulted in switchery in the B1 cockpit, but never progressed beyond that.
As for RATOG, I guess we have to assume that it was never more than a plan which resulted in switchery in the B1 cockpit, but never progressed beyond that.
Personally I consider '607' to be an excellent book. It appeals to ex-Vulcan people and the genpub alike and is written in a way intended to keep the reader's attention.
It is not a dreary list of facts and figures, thankfully.
I am not aware of any inaccuracies or exaggerations in the book.
It is not a dreary list of facts and figures, thankfully.
I am not aware of any inaccuracies or exaggerations in the book.
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Interestingly, having read these posts, I did a little digging on RATOG on the Vulcan.
Vulcan B2's were definitely scaled for RATO, with it being a pair of jettisonable Spectre rocket engines. There is still a sub section devoted to it in the Topic 3 (Spare Parts Schedule) under the heading "Rocket Assisted Take Off Equipment - Removable Items" and was incorporated as Mod 2!
Mod 1 of the Vulcan fleet was "Incorporation Of Rocket Assisted Take Off Gear, Fixed Stores.
Mod 2 was "Incorporation Of Rocket Assisted Take Off Gear, Removable Stores"
Interesting too, is that on the underside of the panels covering the Rapid Start charging points on XH558 (Between jetpipes at rear of engine) there is a warning label, stating "This Panel Is To Be Removed Prior To Fitment Of Rocket Gear", or words thereabouts.
Hmmmmmmmm...
A few more coals for the fire!!
Flipflopman
Vulcan B2's were definitely scaled for RATO, with it being a pair of jettisonable Spectre rocket engines. There is still a sub section devoted to it in the Topic 3 (Spare Parts Schedule) under the heading "Rocket Assisted Take Off Equipment - Removable Items" and was incorporated as Mod 2!
Mod 1 of the Vulcan fleet was "Incorporation Of Rocket Assisted Take Off Gear, Fixed Stores.
Mod 2 was "Incorporation Of Rocket Assisted Take Off Gear, Removable Stores"
Interesting too, is that on the underside of the panels covering the Rapid Start charging points on XH558 (Between jetpipes at rear of engine) there is a warning label, stating "This Panel Is To Be Removed Prior To Fitment Of Rocket Gear", or words thereabouts.
Hmmmmmmmm...
A few more coals for the fire!!
Flipflopman
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That is interesting- you would have thought that the whole RATOG notion would have been dropped by the time the B2 was constructed - evidently not! Are there any corresponding switches still left in the B2 cockpit though?
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I was looking through a Vulcan B1 manual today (no really!) and I noticed that on the engineer's panel
That is interesting- you would have thought that the whole RATOG notion would have been dropped by the time the B2 was constructed - evidently not! Are there any corresponding switches still left in the B2 cockpit though?
This is the second thread on which I have seen you have a dig at another author's work. I personally thought Vulcan 607 was a good read, as many others on here seem to have too.
S_H
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Is it possible that the notion of RATOG was retained in concert with the intended fitment of two Skybolt?
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Tim, no there are no RATOG switches remaining now,
And those pics over on the Key Publishing forum are very unlike the later B2 layout. Although they have the MFS instuments, the RATOG switch is positioned where the TACAN is on the later aircraft. Also, the JPT gauges are very different to later B2's and the 'chute "Jettison/Stream" switches appear on the 1st Pilots console, rather than the Centre console, as in every other B2.
Having said that, having seen the original consoles, and the amount of filler plates, and chopping up that has been done, could well be hiding a very different original layout. The fact that Mk21 oxygen regulators are fitted, with pressure jerkin facility, indicates an operational Vulcan, possibly very early in its career, whilst still in the High Level role?
Flipflopman
And those pics over on the Key Publishing forum are very unlike the later B2 layout. Although they have the MFS instuments, the RATOG switch is positioned where the TACAN is on the later aircraft. Also, the JPT gauges are very different to later B2's and the 'chute "Jettison/Stream" switches appear on the 1st Pilots console, rather than the Centre console, as in every other B2.
Having said that, having seen the original consoles, and the amount of filler plates, and chopping up that has been done, could well be hiding a very different original layout. The fact that Mk21 oxygen regulators are fitted, with pressure jerkin facility, indicates an operational Vulcan, possibly very early in its career, whilst still in the High Level role?
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What......No Engineer !
I don't know about RATO, but the Vulcan was never fitted with an engineer!
Please do excuse my small injection of humour in this serious thread... I just wondered if this was due to the fact that the Vulcan was indeed - never fitted with an oven ?
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It would seem that the switchery was only evident in the B1 then (presumably with external attachment points), and that the external attachment points lingered-on into the B2 but never had any practical purpose. Interesting indeed, and a shame that Sprite trials presumably never happened - a Vulcan B1 with Sprites would have been quite a take-off!
Safety_Helmut, I should point-out that I'm not claiming to write the "authoritative text on the Vulcan" - I'm just doing a book which will hopefully be worth reading, combining material from my past books with additions and amendments so that it creates what will doubtless be a far-from perfect book, but hopefully something better than anything else that's likely to come along. As for "having digs", I'm entitled to a view just like you are, and I personally thought the 607 book was a bit heavy-going; It would have made a great chapter, but a whole book?
As for the new book from Tempus, I wasn't "having a dig" at that either - just pointing-out that it's rubbish! It is full of mistakes, nonsensical information, and lots of material that has been reproduced without permission from myself and other people (one of whom is already talking to his solicitor). I'm amazed it got published actually! However, feel free to continue whining if it makes you happy; I've got broad shoulders
Safety_Helmut, I should point-out that I'm not claiming to write the "authoritative text on the Vulcan" - I'm just doing a book which will hopefully be worth reading, combining material from my past books with additions and amendments so that it creates what will doubtless be a far-from perfect book, but hopefully something better than anything else that's likely to come along. As for "having digs", I'm entitled to a view just like you are, and I personally thought the 607 book was a bit heavy-going; It would have made a great chapter, but a whole book?
As for the new book from Tempus, I wasn't "having a dig" at that either - just pointing-out that it's rubbish! It is full of mistakes, nonsensical information, and lots of material that has been reproduced without permission from myself and other people (one of whom is already talking to his solicitor). I'm amazed it got published actually! However, feel free to continue whining if it makes you happy; I've got broad shoulders
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There is clearly a problem with each new generation of books and articles each repeating earlier sources and not using original material.
Mr Paul Graham in the Spring 2007 edition of Air Power Review, writing about RAF NUclear Deterrence in the Cold War fell in to this trap when he included a table Statistics of Contemporary Bombers from another source. A source is cited but there are 10 different sources under that endnote; are we to believe that the ensuing table is Graham's own work?
There is a table with Range quoted in kilometers and speed in knots or mach together with a service ceiling in feet.
The table suggests a B52 as capable of 883k/0.84M and a Bear at 970k/0.79M. Inspection would suggest two error. Converting km to nautical miles gives 477 and 524 with the latter being rather faster than 0.79M would suggest.
The Vulcan Mk 1 is quoted at 0.84M and the Mk 2 at 0.96M. I seem to recall the Mark 1 actually had a higher mach number. As for the ceiling of the Vulcan Mk 2 at 65000ft, this is certainly questionable and not the published in-service figure. The 4000 mile range and 8 hour plus flight time are really Observer's Book of Aircraft stuff.
Much of the rest of the article seems accurate and authoritative but its credibility is thrown in doubt be sheer errors in an inconsequential table.
At least if contemporary primary sources are used, years after the event, an author can claim lapse of memory from his contributors.
Mr Paul Graham in the Spring 2007 edition of Air Power Review, writing about RAF NUclear Deterrence in the Cold War fell in to this trap when he included a table Statistics of Contemporary Bombers from another source. A source is cited but there are 10 different sources under that endnote; are we to believe that the ensuing table is Graham's own work?
There is a table with Range quoted in kilometers and speed in knots or mach together with a service ceiling in feet.
The table suggests a B52 as capable of 883k/0.84M and a Bear at 970k/0.79M. Inspection would suggest two error. Converting km to nautical miles gives 477 and 524 with the latter being rather faster than 0.79M would suggest.
The Vulcan Mk 1 is quoted at 0.84M and the Mk 2 at 0.96M. I seem to recall the Mark 1 actually had a higher mach number. As for the ceiling of the Vulcan Mk 2 at 65000ft, this is certainly questionable and not the published in-service figure. The 4000 mile range and 8 hour plus flight time are really Observer's Book of Aircraft stuff.
Much of the rest of the article seems accurate and authoritative but its credibility is thrown in doubt be sheer errors in an inconsequential table.
At least if contemporary primary sources are used, years after the event, an author can claim lapse of memory from his contributors.
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CRpxGood
Where's the humour in that?
Ovens are only employed on serious, long day out operational ac, as are engineers, whose only familiararity with the oven, is the Galley Master, which they switch off during MAD serials or compass checks
Flt Deck and Navs are shown around the galley as part of the OCU course, so they are familiar with the ac layout
In fairness, Flt Deck and Navs willingly help out in the Galley in long transits, but under close supervision from the AE cadre - I mean - you wouldn't let your 2 year old supervise the Barbie - would you?
Where's the humour in that?
Ovens are only employed on serious, long day out operational ac, as are engineers, whose only familiararity with the oven, is the Galley Master, which they switch off during MAD serials or compass checks
Flt Deck and Navs are shown around the galley as part of the OCU course, so they are familiar with the ac layout
In fairness, Flt Deck and Navs willingly help out in the Galley in long transits, but under close supervision from the AE cadre - I mean - you wouldn't let your 2 year old supervise the Barbie - would you?
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Took orders, down the back, 6 pies in, 19 minutes later done to a turn.
"Port Beam Snort snort, 3 o'clock 3 miles"
"Action stations standby for MAD - port beam you mean 9 o'clock."
"Captain, no, 3 o'clock, I'm looking out the stbd beam window."
20 minutes later - no pies just a happy smiling MAD Op.
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Wader, that's one of the problems with aviation books - in reality there isn't much information around other than stuff which has already been previously published in books and magazines. Most books are essentially based on information gleaned elsewhere, although most tend to have something new to add here and there. The problem is that it's all too easy to assume that just because something's written in a book or magazine, it must be true. Of course that's often not the case, and so stories and "facts" get repeated time and time again without anybody ever stopping to question anything.
It's rather like the infamous "Vulcan B.Mk.2A" which pops-up in just about every Vulcan book and article, or the "SR2" etc., and yet no such designation existed. Then there's the story that Roy Chadwick lovingly created the delta/flying wing design, whereas he didn't in reality. Things get really bad when you get things like the new book I've mentioned, and the author invents new stuff of his own... "Vulcan B2 BB" - eek!
Books are never perfect sadly - you have to gather all the available information and make a (semi) educated guess!
It's rather like the infamous "Vulcan B.Mk.2A" which pops-up in just about every Vulcan book and article, or the "SR2" etc., and yet no such designation existed. Then there's the story that Roy Chadwick lovingly created the delta/flying wing design, whereas he didn't in reality. Things get really bad when you get things like the new book I've mentioned, and the author invents new stuff of his own... "Vulcan B2 BB" - eek!
Books are never perfect sadly - you have to gather all the available information and make a (semi) educated guess!
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It's rather like the infamous "Vulcan B.Mk.2A" which pops-up in just about every Vulcan book and article, or the "SR2" etc.
The Vulcan SR very nearly did exist, and it is mentioned in official publications, notably as "Vul Mod 003" This was a mod to upgrade the Vulcan to an SR reconaissance variant. This mod was later cancelled however, and appears to only have been intended for the B1 and B1a.
As an aside, a little more trawling today, turned up the fact that Mod 707, was to "Modify the R.A.T.O. instrument panel and electrical system, in line with latest requirements" and having read the mod, it lists several switches and indicators which were to be replaced, along with a number of cables. So it would appear that it was retained for use on B2's although how often, I have no idea. It also makes reference to the "R.A.T.O. Panel", although again, I have no idea where this would have been located!
Flipflopman