Flying pay
XS, I do wear blue, but live behind the wire protected by aircrew's butty boxes, more stuffing than the average sand bag.
The only war stories worth mentioning is that of Tullbahadur Pun VC, or more recently Johnson Beharry VC
We cannot compete with those, so lets not pretend.
The only war stories worth mentioning is that of Tullbahadur Pun VC, or more recently Johnson Beharry VC
We cannot compete with those, so lets not pretend.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air crew rations memories:
The most expensive...........Provided by Gulf Air.
The best.............Honkers at 0400 at 20W.
The worst.......Fischk Balls in gravy......3rd wet thought they were potatoes.
SORRY CHANGED MY MIND .......SOMETHING IN A BOX ON A HERC.
The most food in one day......Lunch.....scrambled on SAR ate 8 hours of rations in 3.5 hours..........Land.......Dinner........Duty supper.....Breakfast. All free of course.
The most expensive...........Provided by Gulf Air.
The best.............Honkers at 0400 at 20W.
The worst.......Fischk Balls in gravy......3rd wet thought they were potatoes.
SORRY CHANGED MY MIND .......SOMETHING IN A BOX ON A HERC.
The most food in one day......Lunch.....scrambled on SAR ate 8 hours of rations in 3.5 hours..........Land.......Dinner........Duty supper.....Breakfast. All free of course.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Lincs
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Enough of this rubbish....
Oh dear...and I thought you usually made sense ZH875.
Aircrew on ground tours are there for the 'Service Need' - believe me, they would not be there by choice. Their roles need an 'air perspective' that cannot be provided by other branches or, er, they would be - especially since the capitation rate would be less - which is rather the point of this tedious thread. So, given a little logical thought, it should be obvious that you are paying aviators for their specialist knowledge and skills, irrespective of whether that is on the ground or in the air.
I agree with Truckkie - I find it alarming that some harbour such contempt towards the 'point of the spear'. This is the Royal AIR Force after all.
The 'spear' is a good analogy because without a solid shaft behind the tip (ooh er, etc) then it is useless. Hence, mutual respect is the order of the day - or should be.
In my (quite considerable) experience, aircrew are the most self-deprecating bunch of dedicated and competent professionals you could ever have the good fortune to work with. That is not an exclusive statement. Unfortunately, there are evidently some who enjoy clinging to their prejudice.
The case has been made – those that continue to snipe either cannot understand it or positively wish to remain ignorant. Can I suggest that we let this thread wither on the vine?
Aircrew on ground tours are there for the 'Service Need' - believe me, they would not be there by choice. Their roles need an 'air perspective' that cannot be provided by other branches or, er, they would be - especially since the capitation rate would be less - which is rather the point of this tedious thread. So, given a little logical thought, it should be obvious that you are paying aviators for their specialist knowledge and skills, irrespective of whether that is on the ground or in the air.
I agree with Truckkie - I find it alarming that some harbour such contempt towards the 'point of the spear'. This is the Royal AIR Force after all.
The 'spear' is a good analogy because without a solid shaft behind the tip (ooh er, etc) then it is useless. Hence, mutual respect is the order of the day - or should be.
In my (quite considerable) experience, aircrew are the most self-deprecating bunch of dedicated and competent professionals you could ever have the good fortune to work with. That is not an exclusive statement. Unfortunately, there are evidently some who enjoy clinging to their prejudice.
The case has been made – those that continue to snipe either cannot understand it or positively wish to remain ignorant. Can I suggest that we let this thread wither on the vine?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Uk 50% , Anywhere 50%
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZH875,
I agree. Get me out of this ground tour and send me back into the cockpit. Smiles all round from me.
Thata what I'm paid for and would love to do, again.
I agree. Get me out of this ground tour and send me back into the cockpit. Smiles all round from me.
Thata what I'm paid for and would love to do, again.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: London
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZH, you also forget that many aircrew blokes also have engineering degrees. So when it comes to the right man to spec new equipment, why not go for somebody who not only understands the technology but also it's applicability and practicality (or not).
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Somewhere sandy probably.....
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blogger,
Flying pay is all about retention.
To illustrate, i am a 2gp pilot on 47k a year(level 8 flt lt/mid rate flying pay)
Equiv civvie job doing same job/less time away/more days off - 75-80k a year. Why do i stay - because to me the good bits still outweigh the bad.
Take fly pay away or relate it to hours flown = goodbye RAF, Hello airlines.
Airlines are very bouyant at the mo which is forecast to remain the same for at least the next 5 years.
Long and the short, I and the rest of us (aircrew as a whole) are bloody good value for money when you consider all the other crap we put up with as well as flying into the assorted crapholes on bliars world crusade.
This is in no way ment as a dig at you blogs - just saying how it is
Fact. End.
Flying pay is all about retention.
To illustrate, i am a 2gp pilot on 47k a year(level 8 flt lt/mid rate flying pay)
Equiv civvie job doing same job/less time away/more days off - 75-80k a year. Why do i stay - because to me the good bits still outweigh the bad.
Take fly pay away or relate it to hours flown = goodbye RAF, Hello airlines.
Airlines are very bouyant at the mo which is forecast to remain the same for at least the next 5 years.
Long and the short, I and the rest of us (aircrew as a whole) are bloody good value for money when you consider all the other crap we put up with as well as flying into the assorted crapholes on bliars world crusade.
This is in no way ment as a dig at you blogs - just saying how it is
Fact. End.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: ooop north
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cutting through the c**p spouted. Aircrew get flying pay because its part of the deal... want some of it? Apply. In my opinion the deal needs to improve and quickly, cos skilled operators are walking 
P.S Bl00dy well said Spiro
P.S Bl00dy well said Spiro
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
No one else noticed that blogger has blogged off?
He is hiding, probably fighting with his conscience about running a business allegedly turning over more than £60/yr in the Queen's time. Whilst complaining about others legally and fairly on an extra few quid a day for flying pay.
I think it's a deliberate wind up, chaps.
He is hiding, probably fighting with his conscience about running a business allegedly turning over more than £60/yr in the Queen's time. Whilst complaining about others legally and fairly on an extra few quid a day for flying pay.
I think it's a deliberate wind up, chaps.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
more than £60/yr in the Queen's time
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Hook, Hants
Age: 68
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back in the days when I got flying pay I did manage to calculate an hourly rate - one month I got £1000 for a half hour start/stop (and one whole cct) so that must have been.......let me see.......need more fingers.......£2000 per hour. What tremendous value for money I was; even then........
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
quote: "Gosh, that's more than tuppence an hour - he can't be be a pilot then!
Cheers
Whirls."
Touche, Pussycat!
(Yep - I missed the 'k' out, just as bad as extra 'n' in.)
And definitely not an accountant, either!
Cheers
Whirls."
Touche, Pussycat!
(Yep - I missed the 'k' out, just as bad as extra 'n' in.)
And definitely not an accountant, either!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lincs
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look at the latest Chinook news and then tell me we shouldn't get flying pay. Seriously, try it and then wait whilst I send you a PM with a lot of words that sound like you clucking funt. Now why don't you all get back in your boxes and do your own f@@king jobs.
(Stand by for edit when I calm down, but don't hold your breath).
(Stand by for edit when I calm down, but don't hold your breath).
Last edited by BootFlap; 30th May 2007 at 22:22. Reason: Calmed down, but still not changing post!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Out East
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Guys
God Bless you all.
I haven't laughed at such sniping for yonks. We engineers used to say: "Flying can't be too difficult, if it was pilots wouldn't be able to do it". Nobody mentioned the ladies flying FJs either (or if they did my rheumy old eyes missed it).
Thanks for making Old Ned smile.
Seriously Folks, you aircrew are certainly earning your flying pay good luck to you all. However, the question of flying pay on non-flying tours is interesting - perhaps a reduced rate might be in order.........?
We engineers used to get 7/6d per day Tech Qual Pay (38p for the youngsters), but it was stopped as a saving measure!!
(Bait floated, now feet up with cold beer waiting for a bite)
(I just lurve these smilies)
I haven't laughed at such sniping for yonks. We engineers used to say: "Flying can't be too difficult, if it was pilots wouldn't be able to do it". Nobody mentioned the ladies flying FJs either (or if they did my rheumy old eyes missed it).Thanks for making Old Ned smile.
Seriously Folks, you aircrew are certainly earning your flying pay good luck to you all. However, the question of flying pay on non-flying tours is interesting - perhaps a reduced rate might be in order.........?
We engineers used to get 7/6d per day Tech Qual Pay (38p for the youngsters), but it was stopped as a saving measure!!
(Bait floated, now feet up with cold beer waiting for a bite)
(I just lurve these smilies)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lincs
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Ned, your tone suggests you are a nice bloke, so in the midst of my rage I will try and give you a straight answer.
Having done a non-flying but flying related tour I would have been p!ssed off in the extreme if my pay had been cut for doing a ground tour that I didn't really want to do, but that someone had to. I was lucky (!) enough to get posted into the job because I had worked hard and had all the quals you could get in my branch. So, the poster needed the job done, I fitted the bill and (shush, don't tell anyone) but I realised I might be able to do some good. Now, if the poster had told me, 'well done BootFlap, you have been selected to fill this post that also means, and you'll like this, you take a pay cut.......' the GPTN line may have mysteriously cut off to the ethereal sound of a gently exploding pilot extolling the virtues of PMA desk officers getting 'down and dirty' with their own arses! (For the colour blind, that's telling them to go and f@@k themselves!) Therefore, if you want experienced aircrew in these posts (and from experience, the presence of a friendly aircrew mate can save time and effort on many peoples parts) you cannot penalise them. If you do, they simply will not come! Therefore, some poor engineer will be stitched with doing an aircrew job. Now you may initially think, 'fantastic, not a snag'. However, I would argue this is akin to having an aircrew mate do the Eng Ops or Line Controller job, after all it is not actually engineering, is it? Or maybe, just maybe, the experience gained through training and hard work, in all trades/branches, means that all have something to offer, and the combined efforts make for a better result.
Now then, Flying Pay! Sorry, but this is market forces in its purest form. A short search on t'internet will give rough salary scales for any job out there. If you were brash enough to equate OC Supply to an Argos Store Manager (I know, i know, Argos actually delivers!) it will give you a rough idea of an equivalent wage outside. I will not give any more examples, because only you know your true worth (mine's 2 Magners and a knee trembler behind a 197x Viva E Coupe, but that's a different story!), but trust me the airlines and BAE are paying well. I don't want to leave, but after 21 years of near continual Ops my family wants cash! I will be sad if I do leave (still undecided) but I will not be bitter; I only wish others would accept the Force for what it is, and more importantly, what it should be, just a 'chuffing big Sqn'. Look after each other, accept we are different, get down the pub when able, tell jokes about non-PC birds with bad arthritis and get on with it.
Rant over, if I offend, I apologise. It's been a bad night.
Having done a non-flying but flying related tour I would have been p!ssed off in the extreme if my pay had been cut for doing a ground tour that I didn't really want to do, but that someone had to. I was lucky (!) enough to get posted into the job because I had worked hard and had all the quals you could get in my branch. So, the poster needed the job done, I fitted the bill and (shush, don't tell anyone) but I realised I might be able to do some good. Now, if the poster had told me, 'well done BootFlap, you have been selected to fill this post that also means, and you'll like this, you take a pay cut.......' the GPTN line may have mysteriously cut off to the ethereal sound of a gently exploding pilot extolling the virtues of PMA desk officers getting 'down and dirty' with their own arses! (For the colour blind, that's telling them to go and f@@k themselves!) Therefore, if you want experienced aircrew in these posts (and from experience, the presence of a friendly aircrew mate can save time and effort on many peoples parts) you cannot penalise them. If you do, they simply will not come! Therefore, some poor engineer will be stitched with doing an aircrew job. Now you may initially think, 'fantastic, not a snag'. However, I would argue this is akin to having an aircrew mate do the Eng Ops or Line Controller job, after all it is not actually engineering, is it? Or maybe, just maybe, the experience gained through training and hard work, in all trades/branches, means that all have something to offer, and the combined efforts make for a better result.
Now then, Flying Pay! Sorry, but this is market forces in its purest form. A short search on t'internet will give rough salary scales for any job out there. If you were brash enough to equate OC Supply to an Argos Store Manager (I know, i know, Argos actually delivers!) it will give you a rough idea of an equivalent wage outside. I will not give any more examples, because only you know your true worth (mine's 2 Magners and a knee trembler behind a 197x Viva E Coupe, but that's a different story!), but trust me the airlines and BAE are paying well. I don't want to leave, but after 21 years of near continual Ops my family wants cash! I will be sad if I do leave (still undecided) but I will not be bitter; I only wish others would accept the Force for what it is, and more importantly, what it should be, just a 'chuffing big Sqn'. Look after each other, accept we are different, get down the pub when able, tell jokes about non-PC birds with bad arthritis and get on with it.
Rant over, if I offend, I apologise. It's been a bad night.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ulster
Age: 58
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm,
Rewards for training received, Bit like my Trade group 11 LAC's SAC's going away for 10 weeks Trade Training to Trade Group 4 (or on benefits!), Be it at public/their own expense (after Jul), and guess what then receiving no pay incentive/increase at all, it would seem we are all being shafted by the beancounters. (Look at the PVR Rates at the Mo)
I am afraid that the RAF/ARMY/NAVY is on the rocky road to no where with all this in house Playground "My dad is bigger than your dad stuff"
Lets Just get on with what we have to do, and bring back the if you have done the course and got the Q annotation then lets pay you for it.
Rewards for training received, Bit like my Trade group 11 LAC's SAC's going away for 10 weeks Trade Training to Trade Group 4 (or on benefits!), Be it at public/their own expense (after Jul), and guess what then receiving no pay incentive/increase at all, it would seem we are all being shafted by the beancounters. (Look at the PVR Rates at the Mo)
I am afraid that the RAF/ARMY/NAVY is on the rocky road to no where with all this in house Playground "My dad is bigger than your dad stuff"
Lets Just get on with what we have to do, and bring back the if you have done the course and got the Q annotation then lets pay you for it.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lincs
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZoFo,
in fairness I accept that your Dad is probably bigger than my dad (considering mine was reduced to his constituent parts by a 3000 deg C furnace several years ago and is now played for by my children bi-annually in a 'quick-cricket' tournament on the road outside my house, to the amusement of my US/AUS friends when I tell them 'the Ashes' are back in the UK!).
Also, with you on paying for Q-annotations! Hands up all QFIs and QWIs who'd agree to that!!!!!!!!!!! 'Two's in!'
XFer, I always found the Viva to be surprisingly accomodating! The Marina was a little too bulky around the beam, but the Hillman Imp was without doubt a cheeky little number!
in fairness I accept that your Dad is probably bigger than my dad (considering mine was reduced to his constituent parts by a 3000 deg C furnace several years ago and is now played for by my children bi-annually in a 'quick-cricket' tournament on the road outside my house, to the amusement of my US/AUS friends when I tell them 'the Ashes' are back in the UK!).
Also, with you on paying for Q-annotations! Hands up all QFIs and QWIs who'd agree to that!!!!!!!!!!! 'Two's in!'
XFer, I always found the Viva to be surprisingly accomodating! The Marina was a little too bulky around the beam, but the Hillman Imp was without doubt a cheeky little number!
Last edited by BootFlap; 30th May 2007 at 22:10.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: England
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another perspective - not PAYD but PAYF
17.21 Civilian Flight Observer's Allowance
An allowance for each hour in the air is to be paid to officers who are required to fly in an aircraft for the purpose of carrying out a particular task connected with the testing or trials of experimental, new, modified and repaired aircraft or equipment.
To receive the allowance an officer must be designated a Civilian Flight
Observer by the Head of Establishment or an officer not below Band C1 level or equivalent acting with his or her authority.
Positioning flights for the purpose of conducting tests from another airfield or site do not qualify for the allowance unless tests are carried out during such flights.
Prior approval of the Head of Establishment or the officer acting on his behalf is required for each flight or series of flights. The allowance will not be paid unless the flight clearly involves the performance of duties under difficult and exacting conditions, entailing a measure of increased personal responsibility.
Claims are to be submitted monthly to the paying officer on PPA Form 1941. The Certificate on the form is to be signed by an officer superior in rank to the claimant. The flying times for the month are to be aggregated and fractions of an hour paid as a full hour, e.g.. 12 flights with an aggregate flying time of eight hours and ten minutes count as nine hours.
The allowance may also be paid to members of the Photographer specialism
designated Civilian Flight Observers when engaged on flying duties involving
special features and extra personal responsibilities.
An allowance for each hour in the air is to be paid to officers who are required to fly in an aircraft for the purpose of carrying out a particular task connected with the testing or trials of experimental, new, modified and repaired aircraft or equipment.
To receive the allowance an officer must be designated a Civilian Flight
Observer by the Head of Establishment or an officer not below Band C1 level or equivalent acting with his or her authority.
Positioning flights for the purpose of conducting tests from another airfield or site do not qualify for the allowance unless tests are carried out during such flights.
Prior approval of the Head of Establishment or the officer acting on his behalf is required for each flight or series of flights. The allowance will not be paid unless the flight clearly involves the performance of duties under difficult and exacting conditions, entailing a measure of increased personal responsibility.
Claims are to be submitted monthly to the paying officer on PPA Form 1941. The Certificate on the form is to be signed by an officer superior in rank to the claimant. The flying times for the month are to be aggregated and fractions of an hour paid as a full hour, e.g.. 12 flights with an aggregate flying time of eight hours and ten minutes count as nine hours.
The allowance may also be paid to members of the Photographer specialism
designated Civilian Flight Observers when engaged on flying duties involving
special features and extra personal responsibilities.