Save The Red Arrows - Sign the Petition
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Despite the scoffing and cynicism on this thread, the Reds obviously have a place in the public's heart as the number of signatories is now 13000, with 8500 adding their names (several senior officer too, and at least one retired 2*) in the last 3 days.
It is now the 8th most signed petition and, somewhat ironically, it's higher in the list than the "Save the Royal Navy" petition. All this goes to show that the Team IS valued by the public at large.
Much has been written in the press recently about the value of these petitions, but Tony Blair is to send an email to every one of the 1.5m or so signatories to the Road Pricing petition. A relatively recent addition to the public's right to reply and with time it will probably gain stature as the system matures. Detractors say that there are lots of ridiculous petitions that devalue the whole idea, but I bet there are plenty of Mickey Mouse petitions signed by a handful of "revolutionaries" plopping onto the mat of Number 10. If nothing else, it raises the profile of issues and instigates public debate. Yes, of course it's made it all too easy to voice opinions to the government, but at least it gets people involved that otherwise wouldn't have bothered their arses writing a letter. And isn't being able to express those opinions in a democracy what we, the military, defend? (Cue more thread drift...)
I think we should be happy that Joe Public takes enough notice of the Reds to actually sign up. I think the Navy's doomed though
It is now the 8th most signed petition and, somewhat ironically, it's higher in the list than the "Save the Royal Navy" petition. All this goes to show that the Team IS valued by the public at large.
Much has been written in the press recently about the value of these petitions, but Tony Blair is to send an email to every one of the 1.5m or so signatories to the Road Pricing petition. A relatively recent addition to the public's right to reply and with time it will probably gain stature as the system matures. Detractors say that there are lots of ridiculous petitions that devalue the whole idea, but I bet there are plenty of Mickey Mouse petitions signed by a handful of "revolutionaries" plopping onto the mat of Number 10. If nothing else, it raises the profile of issues and instigates public debate. Yes, of course it's made it all too easy to voice opinions to the government, but at least it gets people involved that otherwise wouldn't have bothered their arses writing a letter. And isn't being able to express those opinions in a democracy what we, the military, defend? (Cue more thread drift...)
I think we should be happy that Joe Public takes enough notice of the Reds to actually sign up. I think the Navy's doomed though
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"I am deadly serious in saying that they are just as much a part of British culture as Big Ben, a Constable painting or a poem by Sassoon."
Well if so, how about the Royal Yacht? She was around a lot longer and was arguably a far greater part of British Culture. That didn't prevent her disposal and it seems that no-one really misses her either!
The comment that the pointless, ignored petition regarding the RN is attracting less signatures than the pointless, ignored petition about the Red Arrows is pretty daft given that the general public are pretty ignorant about what it is we do as armed services, for them. The fact that they think that preserving an aerobatic team is more important than maintaining vital front line maritime security, along with all the other george about theatre entry, power projection etc etc, is a staggering indictment of public opinion and just goes to show that we are a fundamentally shallow nation, more interested in preserving entertainment for ourselves than caring about the less interesting, but critically important issue of operational capability. I know which I'd rather keep and I think its a real shame that there should have be a choice between the two, as I think that the Reds are an awesome sight and the pilots highly professional. But if you have a Govt with such a limited understanding of defence, as we do now, then there are hard choices to be made. If chopping the RA's saves just one fragment of OC, then so be it.
I bet those boys out in Afghanistan who haven't even got a decent amount of armoured vehicles and next to no helicopters aren't wishing for an air display and an ice-cream to help them out.
Well, maybe they'd like an ice-cream...
Well if so, how about the Royal Yacht? She was around a lot longer and was arguably a far greater part of British Culture. That didn't prevent her disposal and it seems that no-one really misses her either!
The comment that the pointless, ignored petition regarding the RN is attracting less signatures than the pointless, ignored petition about the Red Arrows is pretty daft given that the general public are pretty ignorant about what it is we do as armed services, for them. The fact that they think that preserving an aerobatic team is more important than maintaining vital front line maritime security, along with all the other george about theatre entry, power projection etc etc, is a staggering indictment of public opinion and just goes to show that we are a fundamentally shallow nation, more interested in preserving entertainment for ourselves than caring about the less interesting, but critically important issue of operational capability. I know which I'd rather keep and I think its a real shame that there should have be a choice between the two, as I think that the Reds are an awesome sight and the pilots highly professional. But if you have a Govt with such a limited understanding of defence, as we do now, then there are hard choices to be made. If chopping the RA's saves just one fragment of OC, then so be it.
I bet those boys out in Afghanistan who haven't even got a decent amount of armoured vehicles and next to no helicopters aren't wishing for an air display and an ice-cream to help them out.
Well, maybe they'd like an ice-cream...
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Just checked the petition website and the votes are 14,825 in support of the proposition that, the Prime Minister continue funding for the Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team - The Red Arrows. If the present "sign-up" progress is maintained until the petition's cutoff date of 24 July 2007, the Prime Minister (whoever incumbent at the time) and "government" will surely be obliged to take note?
If potential supporters have just entered the thread at this point, they can vote here rather than trouble to trawl through from the begining!
If potential supporters have just entered the thread at this point, they can vote here rather than trouble to trawl through from the begining!
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I'm a 'save them' if they stop draining on over-tasked resources, such as the C130 that always seems to be in tow, but that could also be said of the Falcons every summer weekend too. It would also be interesting to see if the Blues are fully manned, particularly while other squadrons - not necessarily pointies - are suffering manning shortfalls. Our 'spare' should go to display teams, not the other way around.
And if we do need to reduce spending, how about a review of all the flypasts (inc. practices) and other jollies that happen way too frequently. If we stop p1ssing around so much with our allegedly stretched forces people might start asking what's happening!
And if we do need to reduce spending, how about a review of all the flypasts (inc. practices) and other jollies that happen way too frequently. If we stop p1ssing around so much with our allegedly stretched forces people might start asking what's happening!
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3.14
I think not chap, even by their own admission!
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red7.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red5.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red9.html
Those exercises must have really tested them operationally! Someone may correct me, but I don't remember the F3 ever having flown operationally in Iraq. If it hasn't, is this walting?
Front line credibility? Some, but not all.
Much as I enjoy watching them, the writings on the wall.
Possibly the best display team in the world, but unjustifiable when we are fighting two wars.
And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan. We've all done 'ops' of one kind or another, so if all you really want is a contest then why not direct your attention to asking why there are 60+ Gp Capts in MoD or 30+ at Wyton?
15th February 2007 00:00
15th February 2007 00:00
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red7.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red5.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red9.html
Those exercises must have really tested them operationally! Someone may correct me, but I don't remember the F3 ever having flown operationally in Iraq. If it hasn't, is this walting?
Front line credibility? Some, but not all.
Much as I enjoy watching them, the writings on the wall.
Possibly the best display team in the world, but unjustifiable when we are fighting two wars.
Last edited by rudekid; 17th Feb 2007 at 20:34.
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Not sure I would fight hard to save but I think the PR would stop mention of visits to 'Other places' on Op tour so as not to 'upset' the paying public. Be a neutral as possible, we need to keep all our fans on side.
Having worked with them in the past, their rep is worse than the truth!!!
Having worked with them in the past, their rep is worse than the truth!!!
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Save The Red Arrows
Yes, the REDS do have a value in PR terms, and yes, they do have and have had front line experience - one of my young proteges of years ago is currently bombing Afghanistan after being with the Reds in recent years.
You may not like the style and b
it but it does promote the RAF image at home and overseas in every sense. They are, at the end of the day, qualified professionals doing a limited tour of duty in between normal tours - don't let petty jealousy and bigotry displace the real argument which is whether Accountants, "suits" at MoD, and Management Consultants should rule HM Services. One Station Commander whom I had the good fortune to work for in recent times prior to my own retirement, PVR'd as he felt that he no longer had real control of his own station infrastructure.
However, times are hard, and ALL sacred cows are up for review. I accept that there are many other areas of excess and percieved areas of inefficiency and savings, but the services in general cannot be insulated from the cold winds of economics at every review. All that I would hope to see is that cash is spent wisely and in areas where there is greatest need.
Agreed too that the management "pyramid" needs to be subjected to the process of "lean-ing" rather than carrying on as though we still have an RAF of 90,000 and WWIII to fight.
Let's just hope that the same breed of bean counters who have been "Trojan horsed" into the NHS do not make all the decisions - as we wouldn't want the RAF to be as over-managed as the NHS in terms of front line staff to Senior Manager ratios, would we?
The problem is that the same breed of guys with a Degree in Underwater Basket Weaving and precious little front line experience make the decisions to chop the wrong wires, and when the lights go out they realise all too late that they can't repair the damage.
When you've PVR'd yourself you'll find it's exactly the same in the world outside the RAF - Accountants now rule the world - not the Taliban !
You may not like the style and b
it but it does promote the RAF image at home and overseas in every sense. They are, at the end of the day, qualified professionals doing a limited tour of duty in between normal tours - don't let petty jealousy and bigotry displace the real argument which is whether Accountants, "suits" at MoD, and Management Consultants should rule HM Services. One Station Commander whom I had the good fortune to work for in recent times prior to my own retirement, PVR'd as he felt that he no longer had real control of his own station infrastructure.However, times are hard, and ALL sacred cows are up for review. I accept that there are many other areas of excess and percieved areas of inefficiency and savings, but the services in general cannot be insulated from the cold winds of economics at every review. All that I would hope to see is that cash is spent wisely and in areas where there is greatest need.
Agreed too that the management "pyramid" needs to be subjected to the process of "lean-ing" rather than carrying on as though we still have an RAF of 90,000 and WWIII to fight.
Let's just hope that the same breed of bean counters who have been "Trojan horsed" into the NHS do not make all the decisions - as we wouldn't want the RAF to be as over-managed as the NHS in terms of front line staff to Senior Manager ratios, would we?
The problem is that the same breed of guys with a Degree in Underwater Basket Weaving and precious little front line experience make the decisions to chop the wrong wires, and when the lights go out they realise all too late that they can't repair the damage.
When you've PVR'd yourself you'll find it's exactly the same in the world outside the RAF - Accountants now rule the world - not the Taliban !
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I would much rather see the money that is wasted on the Red Arrows every year spent on such minor things as body armour for EVERY person serving in harms way, decent armoured vehicles which may combat road side bombings or bonuses (by way of tax free salaries) for our brave men and women placing their lives on the line for Queen and Country in god-forsaken sh*tho*es in the world.
My god, the money could even be donated to the Conservative Party campaign funds so that the biggus dickuses in no 10 can be removed as soon as possible.
My god, the money could even be donated to the Conservative Party campaign funds so that the biggus dickuses in no 10 can be removed as soon as possible.
Cancel all those glossy tv adverts that the Armed Forces have as well then? Seem to remember the Army running a tv ad campaign a few years ago that cost more than the Reds budget for the year.
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Biting ...
Rudekid: Those exercises must have really tested them operationally! Someone may correct me, but I don't remember the F3 ever having flown operationally in Iraq. If it hasn't, is this walting?
Rudekid: Front line credibility? Some, but not all.
HighCirrus: Just checked the petition website and the votes are 14,825 in support of the proposition ........
New Labour spin: 0.025% of the population want to keep the Red Arrows. 99.975% of the UK either do not want to keep funding the Reds or have no firm opinion one way or another.
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3.14
Don't know how being on exercise correlates with being on Ops. I'm only pointing out that you can't justify the existence of the Reds by demonstrating their successful history of employing operational pilots.
Sorry if I seem obtuse, but just to confirm they don't all have 'ops' experience, unless you mean 'ops' in a different way to how the deployable RAF do 'ops'! Mind you if, as I suspect, you're from the F3 then you may not know the difference anyway
Banter switch on.
I genuinely don't remember the F3 deploying on Telic, but standby to be corrected. Someone must be able to enlighten us about the F3's being shot at? Surely fighter mates wouldn't be hiding their lights under a bushel...
As I have previously stated, I think the reds are excellent and it will be a shame to lose them. I still don't believe that we can justify their existence in the current climate. Now, if we changed it to 9 line jets out of Valley, flown by 9 current QFIs from Valley, this would be a more acceptable presentation. It wouldn't matter that this would actually be virtually the same thing and that you wouldn't get much mileage out of either the jets or the pilots, but you may be able to justify their existence to the wider community.
Sadly, it's adapt or die IMHO.
And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan.
Sorry if I seem obtuse, but just to confirm they don't all have 'ops' experience, unless you mean 'ops' in a different way to how the deployable RAF do 'ops'! Mind you if, as I suspect, you're from the F3 then you may not know the difference anyway
Banter switch on.I genuinely don't remember the F3 deploying on Telic, but standby to be corrected. Someone must be able to enlighten us about the F3's being shot at? Surely fighter mates wouldn't be hiding their lights under a bushel...
As I have previously stated, I think the reds are excellent and it will be a shame to lose them. I still don't believe that we can justify their existence in the current climate. Now, if we changed it to 9 line jets out of Valley, flown by 9 current QFIs from Valley, this would be a more acceptable presentation. It wouldn't matter that this would actually be virtually the same thing and that you wouldn't get much mileage out of either the jets or the pilots, but you may be able to justify their existence to the wider community.
Sadly, it's adapt or die IMHO.
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rudekid
Being on OPS is not the same as being in a declared conflict and is certainly not just a case of being shot at you know!
I flew Nimrods during the Falklands - Didn't get shot at once!
Flew E-3As during GW1 - Didn't get shot at then!
Flew E-3Ds during Bosnia, Kosavo - Didn't get shot at then either!
Flew E-3Ds during Afghanistan - Nope, didn't get shot at then either! and
Flew E-3Ds during GW2 and Nah, still didn't get shot at!!! (Maybe I'm just lucky)
I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours
We should NOT have to justify the Red Arrows at all. They represent the very best of the RAF and of the country as a whole. Do you know of any better way of promoting this country? They fly 6 to 8 trips per day (wx permitting) and your ideas of using 9 QFIs just would not work. The same goes for the airspace at valley. They need a big chunk of sanitised airspace to practice each day.
As for the costs - well I'm not entirely certain here, but I think that you will find that a huge lump of it is paid by BAe for the promotion of the Hawk aircraft, and whilst there is obviously a cost to the taxpayer, in this day and age it is frankly, negligeable.
KENNYR
'I would much rather see the money that is wasted on the Red Arrows every year spent on such minor things as body armour for EVERY person serving in harms way' If you knew anything about the services, then you would know that any savings made, irrespective to where they come from, DO NOT go back ionto the Defence budget! Gordon keeps it for himself, to give to all those nice asylum seekers and imigrants, so do bear that in mind! When its gone - its gone for good! I do agree with you though about getting this bunch of fools out of government asap!
Kind regards to all
TSM
Being on OPS is not the same as being in a declared conflict and is certainly not just a case of being shot at you know!
I flew Nimrods during the Falklands - Didn't get shot at once!
Flew E-3As during GW1 - Didn't get shot at then!
Flew E-3Ds during Bosnia, Kosavo - Didn't get shot at then either!
Flew E-3Ds during Afghanistan - Nope, didn't get shot at then either! and
Flew E-3Ds during GW2 and Nah, still didn't get shot at!!! (Maybe I'm just lucky)
I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours
We should NOT have to justify the Red Arrows at all. They represent the very best of the RAF and of the country as a whole. Do you know of any better way of promoting this country? They fly 6 to 8 trips per day (wx permitting) and your ideas of using 9 QFIs just would not work. The same goes for the airspace at valley. They need a big chunk of sanitised airspace to practice each day.
As for the costs - well I'm not entirely certain here, but I think that you will find that a huge lump of it is paid by BAe for the promotion of the Hawk aircraft, and whilst there is obviously a cost to the taxpayer, in this day and age it is frankly, negligeable.
KENNYR
'I would much rather see the money that is wasted on the Red Arrows every year spent on such minor things as body armour for EVERY person serving in harms way' If you knew anything about the services, then you would know that any savings made, irrespective to where they come from, DO NOT go back ionto the Defence budget! Gordon keeps it for himself, to give to all those nice asylum seekers and imigrants, so do bear that in mind! When its gone - its gone for good! I do agree with you though about getting this bunch of fools out of government asap!
Kind regards to all
TSM
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TSM,
Thanks, I agree.
ps. I agree with your comment about the re-distribution of funds. I'd rather see the £48000 spent on new curtains for No10 spent on body armour - I think people look to the headline grabbers (Red, BBMF etc) rather than at why some MPs claim expenses for second houses etc.
Rude Kid,
The "deployable" F3s have been shot at in a number of different arenas - ie Op Deny Flight, Op Southern Watch. I can't clarify the Jag guys credentials re Northern Watch, but "deployable" Jags have been shot at there too (and during Deny Flight).
All the named 'ops' (as evidenced by the name Operation Southern Watch) were not conflicts, but 'ops' nonetheless. I think you're picking at my words a little too much and perhaps should give the offrs in question a little more credit.
The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide. I'm just not sure that a petition will save them if the threat is that great.
Thanks, I agree.
ps. I agree with your comment about the re-distribution of funds. I'd rather see the £48000 spent on new curtains for No10 spent on body armour - I think people look to the headline grabbers (Red, BBMF etc) rather than at why some MPs claim expenses for second houses etc.
Rude Kid,
The "deployable" F3s have been shot at in a number of different arenas - ie Op Deny Flight, Op Southern Watch. I can't clarify the Jag guys credentials re Northern Watch, but "deployable" Jags have been shot at there too (and during Deny Flight).
All the named 'ops' (as evidenced by the name Operation Southern Watch) were not conflicts, but 'ops' nonetheless. I think you're picking at my words a little too much and perhaps should give the offrs in question a little more credit.
The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide. I'm just not sure that a petition will save them if the threat is that great.
BAeS don't pay a penny towards the upkeep of the Reds. There are contibutions, however, towards the press and pr material. Only exception to this are overseas tours which are generally funded by industry through DESO.
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TSM
Just visit the Red Arrows website and read it yourself. If can't be arsed to read what I've already written then that's upto you.
At least one of the chaps has only done one frontline tour. I'm sure they're all massively capable operators, but you can't win arguments about the 'ops' credentials of the Reds with something that isn't true. Most of the boys have done 'ops',I agree, but that wasn't the argument.
It would be interesting to hear a post from a Red (or former) about them flying six to eight sorties a day. Sounds like garbage to me I'm afraid.
You're probably over qualified for the Reds anyway, with all your Ops time!
Thanks for that 3.14, that must be a real hardship. Poor old Reds...having a sporadic social and family life, packed schedule . Sounds just like being on 'Ops"
Now that's irony!
writingwritingwritingwritingwritingwritingwriting
wall
Just for those who can't see it!
I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours
At least one of the chaps has only done one frontline tour. I'm sure they're all massively capable operators, but you can't win arguments about the 'ops' credentials of the Reds with something that isn't true. Most of the boys have done 'ops',I agree, but that wasn't the argument.
It would be interesting to hear a post from a Red (or former) about them flying six to eight sorties a day. Sounds like garbage to me I'm afraid.
You're probably over qualified for the Reds anyway, with all your Ops time!
The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide.
Thanks for that 3.14, that must be a real hardship. Poor old Reds...having a sporadic social and family life, packed schedule . Sounds just like being on 'Ops"
Now that's irony!
writingwritingwritingwritingwritingwritingwriting
wall
Just for those who can't see it!
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Having read the bio's of the new guys and hearing how strapped the Harrier force is for QWI's, you could get the whole of JFH signing the 'scrap' petition if the Reds hadn't have taken nearly 15% of the useful QWI experience from their front line/OCU. I'll admit that loop the loops are great......... but in these godforsaken times I think that priorities should be Operational.