Save The Red Arrows - Sign the Petition
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Radio 5 Live - 13 Feb
Nicky Campbell interviewing some politcal expert about Downing St petitions ...
"Do politicians ever take any notice of online petitions where protesters just tick a box?"
No.
"Which is more influential? Column inches in the press, or a petition?"
Definitely column inches, without a doubt. Politicians live by the press and, rightly or wrongly, react to press pressure.
Online petition = wasted time - put your efforts into a more public campaign and shame them into keeping the Reds. Or just pay to have 'The Blades' painted red and pass them off as an RAF asset ...
"Do politicians ever take any notice of online petitions where protesters just tick a box?"
No.
"Which is more influential? Column inches in the press, or a petition?"
Definitely column inches, without a doubt. Politicians live by the press and, rightly or wrongly, react to press pressure.
Online petition = wasted time - put your efforts into a more public campaign and shame them into keeping the Reds. Or just pay to have 'The Blades' painted red and pass them off as an RAF asset ...
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threepointonefour
Not too sure that you are correct when you say “Online petition = wasted time”. This from the Telegraph seems to say differently.
If anyone really wants to sign a petition that will increase pressure on Bliar’s “government”, check out here and make your mark!
From the website.
Could be this one's worth signing?
Not too sure that you are correct when you say “Online petition = wasted time”. This from the Telegraph seems to say differently.
Democracy will never be the same again
By Shane Richmond, Online News Editor 13/02/2007
More than one million people have now signed the petition against road pricing on the Downing Street website, making it the most significant example of internet-driven politics yet seen in Britain.
The petition is available only online and the web is also driving participation, with people emailing their friends to urge them to add their names.
As with most internet phenomena, the trend is further advanced in the United States, where politicians have for years been using the internet and email to garner support and harvest donations. But increasingly the voters have been using the internet themselves, particularly to publish and share "gotcha" moments.
By Shane Richmond, Online News Editor 13/02/2007
More than one million people have now signed the petition against road pricing on the Downing Street website, making it the most significant example of internet-driven politics yet seen in Britain.
The petition is available only online and the web is also driving participation, with people emailing their friends to urge them to add their names.
As with most internet phenomena, the trend is further advanced in the United States, where politicians have for years been using the internet and email to garner support and harvest donations. But increasingly the voters have been using the internet themselves, particularly to publish and share "gotcha" moments.
From the website.
The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working mother who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month.
On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill.
If you care about our freedom and stopping the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website.
On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill.
If you care about our freedom and stopping the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website.
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AP75,
I can go with you to some degree, but think back to the the much PROMISED Euro referendum ...
Everyone knows that the VAST majority want it. There have been petitions, protests and letters. And yet we still have yet to see it, even tho we were told it would be in this governmental term.
All public opinions can all be ignored or rubbished - the spread was not representative etc etc. They'll ask emotive questions when the time is right like,
"Would you rather spend £30m over the next 5 yrs on your local hospital or on maintaining the Red Arrows?"
or
"Disbanding the Red Arrows will save £30m over the next 5 yrs which will equip all our soldiers in Iraq with body armour. Would you prefer body armour for our troops or the Red Arrows?"
The right outcome from a pre-determined review will always be followed. And if by some fluke, the outcome isn't desired, they'll even rubbish their own inquiry (as they did recently). And should they not go so far as trashing it, they'll "interpret" it differently.
Should they decide to keep the Reds, THEY will announce it as thought they've saved a dodo (sorry about the analogy) from extinction. "Aren't we the saviours?"
My point is that they'll do what they want. We are not yet at the US stage of cash driven politics (I said, "yet") and so the comparison is a little premature.
sincerely,
Disillusioned.
I can go with you to some degree, but think back to the the much PROMISED Euro referendum ...
Everyone knows that the VAST majority want it. There have been petitions, protests and letters. And yet we still have yet to see it, even tho we were told it would be in this governmental term.
All public opinions can all be ignored or rubbished - the spread was not representative etc etc. They'll ask emotive questions when the time is right like,
"Would you rather spend £30m over the next 5 yrs on your local hospital or on maintaining the Red Arrows?"
or
"Disbanding the Red Arrows will save £30m over the next 5 yrs which will equip all our soldiers in Iraq with body armour. Would you prefer body armour for our troops or the Red Arrows?"
The right outcome from a pre-determined review will always be followed. And if by some fluke, the outcome isn't desired, they'll even rubbish their own inquiry (as they did recently). And should they not go so far as trashing it, they'll "interpret" it differently.
Should they decide to keep the Reds, THEY will announce it as thought they've saved a dodo (sorry about the analogy) from extinction. "Aren't we the saviours?"
My point is that they'll do what they want. We are not yet at the US stage of cash driven politics (I said, "yet") and so the comparison is a little premature.
sincerely,
Disillusioned.
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I had to sit thru an EO day at a secret Lincs trg base recently ...
We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,
Q5. What is the highest female ranking officer in the RAF?
a. AM b. AVM c. AC d. Gp Capt
He then told us the answer (for those of us that didn't know),
A. I recall it was Gp Capt (as the Air Cdre was retiring).
... and subsequently twisted the next question's result.
Q6. How long before we see a female officer become CAS?
a. Never b. At least 25 yrs c. Within 10 yrs d. Within 5yrs
Obviously, given timescales of the aforementioned newly promoted Gp Capt, answers c & d were out, meaning that we all answered b or a.
Interpretation: over 90% of RAF personnel believe it will be at least 25 yrs
before the service is led by a woman.
It's all about what you ask and how you leave the question open for interpretation. Sometimes, the answer is irrelevant.
We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,
Q5. What is the highest female ranking officer in the RAF?
a. AM b. AVM c. AC d. Gp Capt
He then told us the answer (for those of us that didn't know),
A. I recall it was Gp Capt (as the Air Cdre was retiring).
... and subsequently twisted the next question's result.
Q6. How long before we see a female officer become CAS?
a. Never b. At least 25 yrs c. Within 10 yrs d. Within 5yrs
Obviously, given timescales of the aforementioned newly promoted Gp Capt, answers c & d were out, meaning that we all answered b or a.
Interpretation: over 90% of RAF personnel believe it will be at least 25 yrs
before the service is led by a woman.
It's all about what you ask and how you leave the question open for interpretation. Sometimes, the answer is irrelevant.
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I had to sit thru an EO day at a secret Lincs trg base recently ...
We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,
We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,
Coincidently, of the 80 or so guys in my brief, there were about 30 bisexuals and 30 homosexuals. I can only assume that the other 19 were dog f@ckers, but that wasn't an option?!
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PS Sign this petition whilst you're at it:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Workcamps/
Only 19 signatures so far
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Workcamps/
Only 19 signatures so far
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This is a gen dit...I recall (about 25 years ago) sitting in Shareholders when the AEO stood up and announced that women had been accepted as Engineers......the CO stood up at the end and said "Don't worry boys, there is no way I am going to allow any women to maintain the aircraft I fly in".....Absolutely gen......
.... You couldn't make it up could you ?
.... You couldn't make it up could you ?
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I cant vote for it, as some have said the reds Pr machine gets people into the Afco's front door whereas operational stuff doesn't!
Well chaps and chappesses where do you think you will be going if you get in?
The reds is full of tossers who think they are the ultimate, poncing about in open top classic sports cars, shades on and their pristine Armani flying suits on, even the groundies on the "circus" as it is known love themselves and look down on any other groundie fortunate enough to not wear the blue overalls!!
Am sure they do bring a certain ammount of trade to Uk but doubt it's that much! would prefer to see them on the frontline earning their keep with the rest of us instead of mincing about.
Well chaps and chappesses where do you think you will be going if you get in?
The reds is full of tossers who think they are the ultimate, poncing about in open top classic sports cars, shades on and their pristine Armani flying suits on, even the groundies on the "circus" as it is known love themselves and look down on any other groundie fortunate enough to not wear the blue overalls!!
Am sure they do bring a certain ammount of trade to Uk but doubt it's that much! would prefer to see them on the frontline earning their keep with the rest of us instead of mincing about.
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The reds is full of tossers who think they are the ultimate, poncing about in open top classic sports cars, shades on and their pristine Armani flying suits on, even the groundies on the "circus" as it is known love themselves and look down on any other groundie ...
A popular view, but having been fortunate enough to fly with them a number of times, and knowing a good few of them, the vast majority of air and ground crew are excellent value for the tax payers money. they get asked to do more and more each year to justify their existence, and their schedules get busier and busier while they put their personal lives on hold and yet they still manage to sign kiddies autographs at airshows.
That kind of publicity is hard to come by.
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Just a thought people, the next time the Sparrows come over, especially if its a none airfield show, don't watch them, watch the people around you. Even the most non avaition person will stop and gawk. Ask some passing herbert in the street, he won't know a tornado from a milk float but he will probably know what the Sparrows are.
Yes, I do know the crews can be a bunch of posers but so what, Mozart was a complete pillock. The performance they put on is a work of art and should be preserved as such. I am deadly serious in saying that they are just as much a part of British culture as Big Ben, a Constable painting or a poem by Sassoon.
A civilised country is judged by its culture, is it humane, does it produce things that are worthy and inspiring. Something is not always the sum of its costs, sometimes it is greater than that. And the Arrows are part of that, they are the best in the world. Yes they are a luxury maybe even an indulgence but so is all art.
It shouldn't be about hospitals or Arrows, we need both.
Yes, I do know the crews can be a bunch of posers but so what, Mozart was a complete pillock. The performance they put on is a work of art and should be preserved as such. I am deadly serious in saying that they are just as much a part of British culture as Big Ben, a Constable painting or a poem by Sassoon.
A civilised country is judged by its culture, is it humane, does it produce things that are worthy and inspiring. Something is not always the sum of its costs, sometimes it is greater than that. And the Arrows are part of that, they are the best in the world. Yes they are a luxury maybe even an indulgence but so is all art.
It shouldn't be about hospitals or Arrows, we need both.
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Err...toddbabe, we didn't ...."think".... we were the ultimate (formation aerobatic team), we were the ultimate (formation aerobatic team), and still are, so , get off the computer and **** off back to the frontline and 'earn yer medal'. By getting personal you reveal yourself to be a **** (Nark).
nurj
Omnia mea mecum porto , but not in your case, toddbabe.
nurj
Omnia mea mecum porto , but not in your case, toddbabe.
Last edited by nurjio; 14th Feb 2007 at 20:13.
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As a father who has a lad serving in Iraq with 24Rgt RA in Baghdad, then yes I want him to have the best kit available, instead of me and his mom having to pay for basic kit! But it was a visit to RAF Cosford Airshow that got him interested in the military after he saw the REDS. Those of you who think that the "savings" will be spent elsewhere within the MOD are quite obviously deluded. It is part of our history. I was pissed off when some of our regiments were stood down or "merged" to enable defence costs to be better used. Yeah like that has really had a profound impact on funding our boys in an illegal war with decent protection. 
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3.14 it is true I used to be based alongside them many moons ago I am not going along with some wider held view from people that have never met them.
They were and still are posers that are not contributing anything to the front line where we need bods the most.
Don't give me they are busy! they ought to try living in a tent six months of the year and do some operational flying where the only people interested in watching you are trying to shoot you and not with a bloody camera
.
Busy claiming expenses and playing golf with their nice shiny sponsored clubs that they all got, more like!
Don't get me wrong given the choice I would rather play golf (Not with them) and not go to the desert for half the year but I wouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for it, I would like them too but with everyone else getting the **** end of the wedge why should they be any different?
Pure indulgence.
Good riddance.
They were and still are posers that are not contributing anything to the front line where we need bods the most.
Don't give me they are busy! they ought to try living in a tent six months of the year and do some operational flying where the only people interested in watching you are trying to shoot you and not with a bloody camera
.Busy claiming expenses and playing golf with their nice shiny sponsored clubs that they all got, more like!
Don't get me wrong given the choice I would rather play golf (Not with them) and not go to the desert for half the year but I wouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for it, I would like them too but with everyone else getting the **** end of the wedge why should they be any different?
Pure indulgence.
Good riddance.
Cast the line...I can see that worm...gonna bite...
Toddbabe, I realy can't see your point. I have been on ops with at least one of this years team, and I think you'll find most present team members have been involved on ops in the last ten years. Times they are a changing.
Perhaps there are some sour grapes somewhere?
Toddbabe, I realy can't see your point. I have been on ops with at least one of this years team, and I think you'll find most present team members have been involved on ops in the last ten years. Times they are a changing.
Perhaps there are some sour grapes somewhere?
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Toddbabe: They were and still are posers that are not contributing anything to the front line where we need bods the most.
For anyone that can make it, go and spend a day with them on one of their many In-Season Practice days (invariably at a weekend) and watch how they interact with the many members of the public that they invite. Watch the children's (future pilots) faces. See how their parents look at the guys with respect for their attitude to the young, old and infirm guests. So what if they 'pose' at airshows?
They are fallible, but that doesn't mean they're worthless. How else can you keep the military in the public's eye for a few million each year? By keeping them in peoples faces, we are all constantly reminded of the fact that we have actually got a military. From this base we can then lobby the fools on the hill for better equipment for those frontline troops/aircrew etc.
And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan. We've all done 'ops' of one kind or another, so if all you really want is a contest then why not direct your attention to asking why there are 60+ Gp Capts in MoD or 30+ at Wyton?
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Don't get me started on the Air Officer thing.
Am not really bothered whether they stay or go just can't see why were getting so excited about it when their is far more too worry about in this shambles of an Airforce.
Have in the past enjoyed the displays thet they put on and they probably are the best in the world but to me they are still a luxury that in times of conflict aren't really a priority.
We have critical shortages in manpower in certain areas which mean that others have to spend increased times away on ops away from their families at increased levels of risk.
Yes of course they have all probably done ops recently (ish) but that isn't the point in this case, they aren't being gainfully employed supporting ops or training their replacements on the front line or even doing some related admin job.
My main argument is that if this tinpot Government is going to strip us of lots of other benefits,financial as well as professional and logistical then really why are we so bothered about a flying club for posers?
.Am not really bothered whether they stay or go just can't see why were getting so excited about it when their is far more too worry about in this shambles of an Airforce.
Have in the past enjoyed the displays thet they put on and they probably are the best in the world but to me they are still a luxury that in times of conflict aren't really a priority.
We have critical shortages in manpower in certain areas which mean that others have to spend increased times away on ops away from their families at increased levels of risk.
Yes of course they have all probably done ops recently (ish) but that isn't the point in this case, they aren't being gainfully employed supporting ops or training their replacements on the front line or even doing some related admin job.
My main argument is that if this tinpot Government is going to strip us of lots of other benefits,financial as well as professional and logistical then really why are we so bothered about a flying club for posers?