Blue on Blue.
This was a result of poor skills, poor discipline and a dangerous mind set.
These guys were supposed to be CAS specialists yet they somehow got airborne with inadequate brief about ident of friendlies and friendly kit and capabilities.
Their CAS skills were poor. They talked themselves into beleiving that what they saw fitted their mental picture. The informality of the banter gives huge scope for error and an earlier poster who defended this type of approach hasn't done CAS. There was no attempt on the transcript to use any of the approved techniques to unambiguously ident the target. No unit of measure, nothing!
The fact that these were ANG guys has a bearing but that has been beaten to death before.
Yes these guys didn't intend to hit friendlies but they sure as hell were going to hit something and the tension that creeps into their voices as they approach Bingo with other assets inbound is obvious for all to hear. While commendable to prosecute attacks, it is unprofessional to allow time pressure to cloud your judgement.
The fact that they were inadequately prepared and then exucuted a rushed plan using poor skills in an unprofessional manner lead to the inevitable tragic consequences and should result in them appearing before a court.
These guys were supposed to be CAS specialists yet they somehow got airborne with inadequate brief about ident of friendlies and friendly kit and capabilities.
Their CAS skills were poor. They talked themselves into beleiving that what they saw fitted their mental picture. The informality of the banter gives huge scope for error and an earlier poster who defended this type of approach hasn't done CAS. There was no attempt on the transcript to use any of the approved techniques to unambiguously ident the target. No unit of measure, nothing!
The fact that these were ANG guys has a bearing but that has been beaten to death before.
Yes these guys didn't intend to hit friendlies but they sure as hell were going to hit something and the tension that creeps into their voices as they approach Bingo with other assets inbound is obvious for all to hear. While commendable to prosecute attacks, it is unprofessional to allow time pressure to cloud your judgement.
The fact that they were inadequately prepared and then exucuted a rushed plan using poor skills in an unprofessional manner lead to the inevitable tragic consequences and should result in them appearing before a court.
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Flap62, I absolutely agree with the points made in your post.
As an aside to the debate on the use of US reserve pilots, the Daily Telegraph claims that the pilots were senior ranks (lieutenant colonel,and a major) but had little or no combat experience.
The DT reporting also makes the point that I made yesterday:
"It wasn't the grainy video images that shocked, but the radio traffic between the pilots and their command. It reveals that the decision to attack the British convoy was taken with frightening casualness, even though the airmen appeared far from certain there were no "friendlies" in the area".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../07/dl0701.xml
As an aside to the debate on the use of US reserve pilots, the Daily Telegraph claims that the pilots were senior ranks (lieutenant colonel,and a major) but had little or no combat experience.
The DT reporting also makes the point that I made yesterday:
"It wasn't the grainy video images that shocked, but the radio traffic between the pilots and their command. It reveals that the decision to attack the British convoy was taken with frightening casualness, even though the airmen appeared far from certain there were no "friendlies" in the area".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../07/dl0701.xml
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It has to be said - the record of US Forces in blue-on-blue incidents in action is appalling. It also appears that few lessons are learned. It also appears that there is a cult of needless secrecy in covering up errors. It further appears that the MoD are prepared to bend over and say "Yes Sir" when so instructed by the Pentagon.
None of this will assist in preventing more tragic incidents like the death of Matty Hull.
None of this will assist in preventing more tragic incidents like the death of Matty Hull.
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Despite the MoD finding that the crew had engaged the patrol "without the required authorisation", the US enquiry concluded that, according to Pentagon Spokesman Bryan Whitman, the crew "followed the procedures and processes for engaging targets". How do you square that particular circle?
The intent to avoid any damning admission of failure is no doubt driven by events elsewhere, such as the appeal made by USAF F16 pilot Maj. Harry Schmidt, who was disciplined following his bombing of Canadian troops in Afghanistan during April of 2002. Schmidt's lawyers for the appeal argued that punishing him would have "an adverse effect on the future performance of air force pilots".
They went on to state: "A finding of guilt and imposition of punishment of a pilot, who acted in self-defence in a combat situation, even though his decision was objectively determined to be in error with the benefit of hindsight, sends a profoundly wrong message to other pilots who are flying" - "Hesitation and indecision out of fear that judgment will be second-guessed are potentially more dangerous to combat pilots than honest mistakes made by good officers under the stress of combat".
Despite their best efforts, Schmidt's appeal was thrown out. However, you don't need 20/20 vision to see the logic in avoiding, at all costs, the fall out from prosecuting such apparent acts of negligence. Perhaps it is now accepted that the arguments made by Schmidt's lawyers are paramount in all such cases. Or perhaps it was simply Schmidt's misfortune that it was Canadians and not Brits that were on the ground at the time - the Canadian DND/CF perhaps not being quite so co-operative as our own MoD appear to have been.
I suspect that once the Coroner closes the case, nothing more will be heard.
The intent to avoid any damning admission of failure is no doubt driven by events elsewhere, such as the appeal made by USAF F16 pilot Maj. Harry Schmidt, who was disciplined following his bombing of Canadian troops in Afghanistan during April of 2002. Schmidt's lawyers for the appeal argued that punishing him would have "an adverse effect on the future performance of air force pilots".
They went on to state: "A finding of guilt and imposition of punishment of a pilot, who acted in self-defence in a combat situation, even though his decision was objectively determined to be in error with the benefit of hindsight, sends a profoundly wrong message to other pilots who are flying" - "Hesitation and indecision out of fear that judgment will be second-guessed are potentially more dangerous to combat pilots than honest mistakes made by good officers under the stress of combat".
Despite their best efforts, Schmidt's appeal was thrown out. However, you don't need 20/20 vision to see the logic in avoiding, at all costs, the fall out from prosecuting such apparent acts of negligence. Perhaps it is now accepted that the arguments made by Schmidt's lawyers are paramount in all such cases. Or perhaps it was simply Schmidt's misfortune that it was Canadians and not Brits that were on the ground at the time - the Canadian DND/CF perhaps not being quite so co-operative as our own MoD appear to have been.
I suspect that once the Coroner closes the case, nothing more will be heard.
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Do those "funds" come in $ or £ I wonder...
Suggest you have a receptacle within range to catch any
that may be forthcoming after reading this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6338607.stm
But then again, what should one expect from a pig - but a grunt.
Suggest you have a receptacle within range to catch any
that may be forthcoming after reading this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6338607.stm
But then again, what should one expect from a pig - but a grunt.
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Information to the enemy
The Evening Standard, and others earlier, have said
quote
The Pentagon says showing the footage would give enemies information about U.S. weapons systems.
unquote.
Is this simply a ruse to prevent the tapes going public, or is there any truth in the statement?
Just interested, that's all.
JC
quote
The Pentagon says showing the footage would give enemies information about U.S. weapons systems.
unquote.
Is this simply a ruse to prevent the tapes going public, or is there any truth in the statement?
Just interested, that's all.
JC
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One notices that Bliar apologises to the family for distress caused by the delay in concluding the inquest, but makes no comment whatsoever about the lies they were told by the MoD.
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Uncensored HUD footage maybe... but that's belied by what Maple posted earlier.
Call signs?
They're four years OOD.
What it's like to fly in a warzone?
Footage like turns up on the Discovery and History channels everyday.
Unless there's something more I'm overlooking (would have to watch it again to be sure- I'd rather not) I'd chalk that up as BS.
Call signs?
They're four years OOD.
What it's like to fly in a warzone?
Footage like turns up on the Discovery and History channels everyday.
Unless there's something more I'm overlooking (would have to watch it again to be sure- I'd rather not) I'd chalk that up as BS.
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Cash for honours, 45 min claim, dodgy flat buying in Bristol, failure of all major policies since 1997, promise of "we will do better in the future".
I take it this is B-liar stating his intent to rival Dulux in the sale of whitewash in his post politics career, or perhaps he will successfully market the replacement for Teflon he has so ably developed.
I take it this is B-liar stating his intent to rival Dulux in the sale of whitewash in his post politics career, or perhaps he will successfully market the replacement for Teflon he has so ably developed.
Last edited by 22/7 Master; 7th Feb 2007 at 13:09. Reason: spolling mistooke
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I dont think the HUD symbology is what was labelled as Classified (although their operating heights might be interesting to an enemy although not exactly a well kept secret), or the imagery itself (I couldnt make out ANYTHING on the ground). Wasn't the security issue (if there was one) the video as a whole, including the R/T between the pilots, the pilots and the JTAC/FAC, the parameters of the attacks and the tactics etc.
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Returning to the (comparatively insignificant) matter of the R/T discipline, I take it that we only heard the transmitted conversations. So I am at a loss to understand why they should have transmitted all of their bad language - discrete frequency or not - rather than just turn the air in their own cockpits blue in solitude. Only one expletive ('We're f***ed.') was part of a conversation, while the rest seemed to be merely gratuitous. Is that really the norm nowadays, and with the RAF as well?
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Much chattering on here about the term 'murder' being applied to this event.
While it can never replace the life of the trooper or console his family, what about all the times CAS is gotten right?
The only way CAS fratricide can ever be completely eliminated is to not call for CAS. Since you can't or won't pay for a numerically significant CAS force of your own - the fact that adding ONE more jet to the line up generated so much buzz should be embarrassing! - (Hat's off, however, to those that do exist; there just should be many more of you!), the odds on any given day favor CAS support being American supplied.
Not many news stories or posts about good work being done. Not as much fun there, is it?
To sit at your comfy computer and second-guess those out there doing the job is the height of hypocrisy to me.
The only opinions on here worth reading have been from those who have actually FLOWN CAS or were there on the ground. Those opinions seem to much less hysterical and more professional.
The useless chatter includes my own post here.
Cut and paste the entire post, not just the last line)
While it can never replace the life of the trooper or console his family, what about all the times CAS is gotten right?
The only way CAS fratricide can ever be completely eliminated is to not call for CAS. Since you can't or won't pay for a numerically significant CAS force of your own - the fact that adding ONE more jet to the line up generated so much buzz should be embarrassing! - (Hat's off, however, to those that do exist; there just should be many more of you!), the odds on any given day favor CAS support being American supplied.
Not many news stories or posts about good work being done. Not as much fun there, is it?
To sit at your comfy computer and second-guess those out there doing the job is the height of hypocrisy to me.
The only opinions on here worth reading have been from those who have actually FLOWN CAS or were there on the ground. Those opinions seem to much less hysterical and more professional.
The useless chatter includes my own post here.
Cut and paste the entire post, not just the last line)
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brickhistory, I don't think that bringing up the fact of whether or not we have our own CAS support has anything to do with this topic, it's merely a little sneer at a much smaller country (UK) from a country that is 10x + in size and numbers and therefore can afford to run that size fleet. 
@Zoom - I think if you'd just realised what you'd done, you possibly might forget radio discipline, I know I would.
Whether or not it was about what had just happened or what would happen when they returned to Viper base is mere speculation also.
My two pennies are that was a few miles away when it happened, A-10's circled like vultures, then all hell broke loose on the radios as the whole world wanted to stop the eager beavers in the air. The fact they turned around and went for a second pass after having had time during the strafe run is what baffles me.
I believe recognition training is a major factor here, alongside the "gotta get me one" attitude displayed by so many of our Allied Nations colleagues.
@Zoom - I think if you'd just realised what you'd done, you possibly might forget radio discipline, I know I would.
Whether or not it was about what had just happened or what would happen when they returned to Viper base is mere speculation also.
My two pennies are that was a few miles away when it happened, A-10's circled like vultures, then all hell broke loose on the radios as the whole world wanted to stop the eager beavers in the air. The fact they turned around and went for a second pass after having had time during the strafe run is what baffles me.
I believe recognition training is a major factor here, alongside the "gotta get me one" attitude displayed by so many of our Allied Nations colleagues.
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Maybe buy the A-10 jocks some of these for Christmas....
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n58.html
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n119.html
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n59.html
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n103.html
They could even take them with them for the flight.
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n58.html
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n119.html
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n59.html
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/n103.html
They could even take them with them for the flight.
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vortex.ring qoute:
brickhistory, I don't think that bringing up the fact of whether or not we have our own CAS support has anything to do with this topic, it's merely a little sneer at a much smaller country (UK) from a country that is 10x + in size and numbers and therefore can afford to run that size fleet.
Nope, you are choosing not to fund a comparable fleet for your size. As a nation, you have chosen to have a small air force and military. However, that does mean that if you put your troops in harms' way and they need CAS, it more than likely won't be yours.
Thus, it does, to me anyway, have something to do with this topic. Would there be the cry for retribution to RAF pilots if they'd been there?
No one is infallible and unfortunately, Trooper Hull paid for that. Except for his family, I bet there is no one on this planet who feels worse than that two-ship of A-10 pilots.
I'm not sneering at anything, rather I'm amazed at what gets done with so little.
brickhistory, I don't think that bringing up the fact of whether or not we have our own CAS support has anything to do with this topic, it's merely a little sneer at a much smaller country (UK) from a country that is 10x + in size and numbers and therefore can afford to run that size fleet.
Nope, you are choosing not to fund a comparable fleet for your size. As a nation, you have chosen to have a small air force and military. However, that does mean that if you put your troops in harms' way and they need CAS, it more than likely won't be yours.
Thus, it does, to me anyway, have something to do with this topic. Would there be the cry for retribution to RAF pilots if they'd been there?
No one is infallible and unfortunately, Trooper Hull paid for that. Except for his family, I bet there is no one on this planet who feels worse than that two-ship of A-10 pilots.
I'm not sneering at anything, rather I'm amazed at what gets done with so little.
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Brickhistory
1. The transcripts clearly show the pilots realise they are close to having to leave station and return home.
2. You can clearly hear one of the pilots state "wouldn't it be great to attack them" (paraphrased)
3. You can clearly hear the hesitation and doubt in the R/T of the pilots (based on the orange markers), and the uncertainty in the controllers replies.
4. You can even hear one pilot alomost plead with the other to confirm what he thinks he can see.
Now given those things (amongst many others), why should we not ask questions.
point 1 above - were the pilots feeling pressured by time constraints? Even in the exchange about RTB, there was confusion.
point 2 - was this 'press-on-itis', i.e. the guys wanted to have something to show for their sortie (more of this in a moment).
point 3 and 4 - the two real biggies - under what ROE were these guys, and therefore the US forces operating under if it is deemed acceptable to fire on a target that has not been positively identified, or where there is doubt?
These pilots, despite an American BOI 4 years ago, must carry some of the blame for not adhering to SOPs and ROE.
However, why are the leaders allowing two ANG pilots with (at that time) limited combat experience and limited currency, fly as a two ship on a mission with a high probability of encountering the enemy? Why were they not paired with another pilot who had some experience instead of with each other?
Where is the recognition training amidst all this? Hell, in the not too distant past we used to have to be able to identify submarines by seeing their antennae - how can you mis-ident a british vehicle with promulgated identifying markings on it? If you can't make it out, you look harder/lower... you do not open fire and hope it's the enemy.
So, yes, the pilots are to blame (read famous pierres post (number 93 on page 5))
However, more at fault in this instance is the US system that effectively allows two 'rookie' (before you start, I know they were fairly Senior ANG officers, but they were rookies at this - if not then they are even more to blame) pilots to team up on a hot sortie.
And to cap it all there is the collusion between the MOD and the US, hiding the facts from the family.
We are four years down the line - have we learned from this mistake? I doubt it - we are allowing this type of thing to continue.
This one incident has ruined the lives of the family of L/C of H Hull and probably the 2 A10 pilots (they are victims too - they should not have been placed in the situation).
The ineptitude displayed seems criminal enough, the cover up and therefore the lack of opportunity to learn from this is even more of a heinous crime.
1. The transcripts clearly show the pilots realise they are close to having to leave station and return home.
2. You can clearly hear one of the pilots state "wouldn't it be great to attack them" (paraphrased)
3. You can clearly hear the hesitation and doubt in the R/T of the pilots (based on the orange markers), and the uncertainty in the controllers replies.
4. You can even hear one pilot alomost plead with the other to confirm what he thinks he can see.
Now given those things (amongst many others), why should we not ask questions.
point 1 above - were the pilots feeling pressured by time constraints? Even in the exchange about RTB, there was confusion.
point 2 - was this 'press-on-itis', i.e. the guys wanted to have something to show for their sortie (more of this in a moment).
point 3 and 4 - the two real biggies - under what ROE were these guys, and therefore the US forces operating under if it is deemed acceptable to fire on a target that has not been positively identified, or where there is doubt?
These pilots, despite an American BOI 4 years ago, must carry some of the blame for not adhering to SOPs and ROE.
However, why are the leaders allowing two ANG pilots with (at that time) limited combat experience and limited currency, fly as a two ship on a mission with a high probability of encountering the enemy? Why were they not paired with another pilot who had some experience instead of with each other?
Where is the recognition training amidst all this? Hell, in the not too distant past we used to have to be able to identify submarines by seeing their antennae - how can you mis-ident a british vehicle with promulgated identifying markings on it? If you can't make it out, you look harder/lower... you do not open fire and hope it's the enemy.
So, yes, the pilots are to blame (read famous pierres post (number 93 on page 5))
However, more at fault in this instance is the US system that effectively allows two 'rookie' (before you start, I know they were fairly Senior ANG officers, but they were rookies at this - if not then they are even more to blame) pilots to team up on a hot sortie.
And to cap it all there is the collusion between the MOD and the US, hiding the facts from the family.
We are four years down the line - have we learned from this mistake? I doubt it - we are allowing this type of thing to continue.
This one incident has ruined the lives of the family of L/C of H Hull and probably the 2 A10 pilots (they are victims too - they should not have been placed in the situation).
The ineptitude displayed seems criminal enough, the cover up and therefore the lack of opportunity to learn from this is even more of a heinous crime.
Last edited by anotherthing; 7th Feb 2007 at 15:52. Reason: speeling
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Further to the above post. The A10s were operating in a kill zone. What implication does this have to the RoE?
Got a little perspective from our allies the other day. The lack of Link 16 appears to be a big factor. I was surprised that A10 pilots operating in these fluid situations do not have any form of datalink to assist in targetting.
Got a little perspective from our allies the other day. The lack of Link 16 appears to be a big factor. I was surprised that A10 pilots operating in these fluid situations do not have any form of datalink to assist in targetting.
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Buffhoon promises
Further to Archimedes post on combat ID to avoid fratricide and the promise by Buffhoon to the House to acquire the necessary kit pre GW2. Anyone remember the blue on blue Challenger incident? (I think Scots DG and RTR). You may be interested to note that following pressures on the EP Battlefield Target Identification System (BTIS) has been deleted and to quote LAND this "... impacts particulary in warfighting (DI and FI) requiring armoured vehicle crews to remain reliant upon Situational Awareness and tactics, techniques and procedures to avoid fratricide as opposed to an automatic 'friend or foe' system.
Last edited by EODFelix; 7th Feb 2007 at 16:12. Reason: System name