Blue on Blue.
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Beagle
"I was frankly appalled at the attitude of some of the ANG units who seemed desperate to find an opportunity - any opportunity - to kill something. One so-called ANG commander actually complained to the armed recce units that "If you guys don't stir something up, then we might have to go home next week without having dropped any ordnance". Bloodthirsty shoot-em-up cowboy mentality, I have to say."
I was the armed recce mate to whom that comment was directed. It was not a serious comment. It would be wrong to use that as evidence in a discussion such as this.
I was the armed recce mate to whom that comment was directed. It was not a serious comment. It would be wrong to use that as evidence in a discussion such as this.
How can you possibly have known that such a stupid comment wasn't general at the time? You might have thought that it wasn't a serious comment and was aimed purely in jest at you - but others certainly considered it to be a serious comment.
And the tasking to support that gung-ho ANG idiot's aspirations certainly ramped up for the next few days until, thankfully, they buggered off back to their day jobs in the US as airline co-pilots or whatever.
And the tasking to support that gung-ho ANG idiot's aspirations certainly ramped up for the next few days until, thankfully, they buggered off back to their day jobs in the US as airline co-pilots or whatever.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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I have always been overwhelmed by the pride American citizens have in their service personnel. It is easy to see, however, how the 'Support the Troops' mindset can cloud judgement and how the desire to regard every US servicemen as an infallible hero, can stand in the way of wanting to find out why they make mistakes. I am sure that the airmen who attacked the convoy will be wracked with guilt at what they did but to ignore (or withhold) any evidence that could lead to preventing just one similar accident in the future is what is truly reckless and negligent. The US DoD’s desire to protect its servicemen and women is commendable, but to fail to implement or assist in a robust investigation is inexcusable. It is extremely disappointing that the US is prepared to put their allies’ lives (and possibly operational success) at risk simply because it is reluctant to accept that sometimes its heroic troops fcuk up.
And as for all this talk of the “reasonable doubt that we, as civilised countries, provide to those accused of crimes”, I have two words: Guantanamo Bay.
And as for all this talk of the “reasonable doubt that we, as civilised countries, provide to those accused of crimes”, I have two words: Guantanamo Bay.
Tonight's ITV Evening News named each of the 16 US Marines of Red Platoon who were involved in the shooting of the unarmed ITV reporter, Terry Lloyd, and his interpreter in 2003.
For those who don't remember, Mr Lloyd was unlawfully killed by shots fired into the back of a makeshift ambulance by US Marines.
Coroner Mr Andrew Walker has called on the attorney general and the director of public prosecutions to demand that the Americans bring the perpetrator of a possible war crime before a court of law. However, the US remains defiantly silent.....
For those who don't remember, Mr Lloyd was unlawfully killed by shots fired into the back of a makeshift ambulance by US Marines.
Coroner Mr Andrew Walker has called on the attorney general and the director of public prosecutions to demand that the Americans bring the perpetrator of a possible war crime before a court of law. However, the US remains defiantly silent.....
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Sorry about this, its off the topic, but to answer your question, Beagle:
I know they were bantering because I knew them well, because while I was hanging my arrse out to dry taking piccies overhead Mosul, they were on my wing with their pods on the AAA/SAM sites, warning me about the launches. That's heads in, sausage side, protecting me.
All the weapons they launched were in collective self defence, in response to people shooting at us; NEVER before we were shot at.
We sat in the tactics boards every month discussing what was OK, what was not, what we should and shouldn't do. Granted, as professional aviators they wanted to do their jobs, to the best of their ability, and did celebrate success, but your assertion is an extrapolation.
I am sorry this has clogged up an important discussion, and I hope my post has not devalued the hurt at Matty Hull's loss, and the loss of all our mates.
I know they were bantering because I knew them well, because while I was hanging my arrse out to dry taking piccies overhead Mosul, they were on my wing with their pods on the AAA/SAM sites, warning me about the launches. That's heads in, sausage side, protecting me.
All the weapons they launched were in collective self defence, in response to people shooting at us; NEVER before we were shot at.
We sat in the tactics boards every month discussing what was OK, what was not, what we should and shouldn't do. Granted, as professional aviators they wanted to do their jobs, to the best of their ability, and did celebrate success, but your assertion is an extrapolation.
I am sorry this has clogged up an important discussion, and I hope my post has not devalued the hurt at Matty Hull's loss, and the loss of all our mates.
Sorry - it was the ANG Commander's comment which was later repeated by a Mad Dog. Hence I do NOT consider it banter, there was an underlying desire to kill something -anything - and that is what my colleagues and I found so very distasteful.
It was a wholly different and somewhat inexplicable attitude compared to that which prevailed in earlier, more reasonable years at Incirlik.
It was a wholly different and somewhat inexplicable attitude compared to that which prevailed in earlier, more reasonable years at Incirlik.
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Theres an interesting article on this subject by the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6468391.stm
All the more reason to understand what happend, why it happened and to try and stop it happening again. IMHO.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6468391.stm
All the more reason to understand what happend, why it happened and to try and stop it happening again. IMHO.
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Gentlemen, during the first night of Telic II, I was part of a joint ops HQ in a sandy place where I witnessed the most appalling of comments by an american serviceman. An american army Major called across from his Spectre desk to another sqn representative - 'hey did your guys get to kill anyone yet'. I gained a public apology from him after pointing out that 'everyone in the AOR was someones husband/wife/son or daughter and that they were human beings'. I also had contact with many of the warthog ANG pilots both during the planning phase and on the Op itself and found them gung ho and desperate to drop ordnance - no-one will convince me otherwise.
Also following the unfortunate downing of a coalition aircraft in another blue on blue I was witness to another americans comment of 'thats war, she-ite happens', he was dragged over his desk by an army chap of all people and thrown off the JOC floor never to return.
It happened twice, I was witness to it and as God is my judge I believe that this 'America is great, God bless America' attitude pervades to the detriment of external scrutiny. Its a cultural issue that will never go away.
Also following the unfortunate downing of a coalition aircraft in another blue on blue I was witness to another americans comment of 'thats war, she-ite happens', he was dragged over his desk by an army chap of all people and thrown off the JOC floor never to return.
It happened twice, I was witness to it and as God is my judge I believe that this 'America is great, God bless America' attitude pervades to the detriment of external scrutiny. Its a cultural issue that will never go away.
