Blue on Blue.
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Blue on Blue as an event has happened in all wars and conflicts I agree. The difference nowadays however is that a lot of them are filmed, usually from the offending aircraft.
Until we can be grown up about this and use such footage to ascertain how the event occurred and the best means to prevent or minimise its reoccurence, we are merely turning a blind eye.
Until we can be grown up about this and use such footage to ascertain how the event occurred and the best means to prevent or minimise its reoccurence, we are merely turning a blind eye.
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I bet the families of those CF personnel strafed by A-10s in Afstan in September will find this interesting viewing, not least given that it happened after the Iraq incident and thus one would think A-10 units would have tightened up IFF after that. Apparently not.
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Barn Doors,
well said! There are many comments on this thread from people trying to make a political point, with little apparent knowledge or experience of CAS in a hostile environment. Well, having had that experience I watched the HUD video and could see exactly how this mistake happened. Sad though it is for the families involved, these are the risks that come with CAS and a fast moving ground picture. Technology will hopefully help us in the future, but it cannot be relied upon, and bad things happen in combat.
I must admit to feeling uncomfortable as I watched, as 'there but for the grace' came to mind. Before any one rants at me, which I will duly answer as best I can, I am not condoning the actions of the A-10 drivers, but I am saying I can see how this dreadful mistake happened. The HUD tape cannot show what the stresses were on those pilots; how many missions had they been flying, had there been SAM shots earlier, who knows? But as said earlier, 'he who is without sin, etc.'
well said! There are many comments on this thread from people trying to make a political point, with little apparent knowledge or experience of CAS in a hostile environment. Well, having had that experience I watched the HUD video and could see exactly how this mistake happened. Sad though it is for the families involved, these are the risks that come with CAS and a fast moving ground picture. Technology will hopefully help us in the future, but it cannot be relied upon, and bad things happen in combat.
I must admit to feeling uncomfortable as I watched, as 'there but for the grace' came to mind. Before any one rants at me, which I will duly answer as best I can, I am not condoning the actions of the A-10 drivers, but I am saying I can see how this dreadful mistake happened. The HUD tape cannot show what the stresses were on those pilots; how many missions had they been flying, had there been SAM shots earlier, who knows? But as said earlier, 'he who is without sin, etc.'
Last edited by BootFlap; 6th Feb 2007 at 16:16.
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How about giving our Forward units and CAS assets Link16 terminals?
Either that or attching a Gepard/2S6 unit to the Forward boys with orders to shoot any A-10s that look like they're going to do something they shouldn't?
That'd focus their attention.
In the short term how about making sure that part-time A-10 jockeys can at least recognise the difference between between a ZIL truck and a Sabre armoured unit?
Either that or attching a Gepard/2S6 unit to the Forward boys with orders to shoot any A-10s that look like they're going to do something they shouldn't?
That'd focus their attention.
In the short term how about making sure that part-time A-10 jockeys can at least recognise the difference between between a ZIL truck and a Sabre armoured unit?
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I don't think anyone is trying to point fingers at the pilots, despite some reactions from soldiers (I'd be pretty upset about it too if I was a squaddie). But point out that it's the aftermath that has been bungled badly
Yes, they made a mistake during active operations and yes many of our two-winged regular posters are understandably quiet for obvious reasons.
I think all anyone here is saying is that investigations into these things shouldn't be hushed up or held behind closed doors, except in regards opsec.
The more agencies like the DoD and MoD obfuscate and um-err over these things, the longer it will take lessons to be leaned, equipment to be improved and people will suspect a cover-up.
Yes, they made a mistake during active operations and yes many of our two-winged regular posters are understandably quiet for obvious reasons.
I think all anyone here is saying is that investigations into these things shouldn't be hushed up or held behind closed doors, except in regards opsec.
The more agencies like the DoD and MoD obfuscate and um-err over these things, the longer it will take lessons to be leaned, equipment to be improved and people will suspect a cover-up.
BootFlap,
concur totally, a lot of drivel from a number of people who have never been or will be in that situation. Operational stresses only add to the difficulty of the job. A mistake was made and lessons re-learned again.
Ivor
concur totally, a lot of drivel from a number of people who have never been or will be in that situation. Operational stresses only add to the difficulty of the job. A mistake was made and lessons re-learned again.
Ivor
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There is IFF equipment available but its gadgets that get broken.
The recognition markings and panels only work when everyone knows/understands the SOP/ROE
Yes Active Air Defence of own assets would focus minds.
But its incident after incident i've not heard any results of US Courts of inquirey which would be reassuring. If lessons aren't being learnt by the US military then we need to evaluate how we work in a way that keeps our people safe. The simpleist solution is we stay away fro US military ops but thats not likley to happen.
Maybe we need more accessible direct comms with US command aircraft and a fall back smoke grenade or marker solution. The US needs to ensure its pilots are correctly trained on proceedures and recognition of coalition equipments. But they also have to be transparent and robust in their dealing with those who do cause thease incidents. The cover up and secrecy certainly doesn't promote trust amongst their allies.
The recognition markings and panels only work when everyone knows/understands the SOP/ROE
Yes Active Air Defence of own assets would focus minds.
But its incident after incident i've not heard any results of US Courts of inquirey which would be reassuring. If lessons aren't being learnt by the US military then we need to evaluate how we work in a way that keeps our people safe. The simpleist solution is we stay away fro US military ops but thats not likley to happen.
Maybe we need more accessible direct comms with US command aircraft and a fall back smoke grenade or marker solution. The US needs to ensure its pilots are correctly trained on proceedures and recognition of coalition equipments. But they also have to be transparent and robust in their dealing with those who do cause thease incidents. The cover up and secrecy certainly doesn't promote trust amongst their allies.
I have no personal knowledge of the exact differences in ANG, reserve and regular USAF training/readiness. One suspects that ANG pilots would not fly as much (i.e., not on a daily basis) as full-time USAF pilots, but that's only my assumption.
For that matter....what Air Force pilot on active anywhere in the world flies every work day?
In my National Guard unit we had two guys that had flown in three wars...and most of the rest of us had two tours of combat.
Generally speaking, the Reserve/Guard pilots have more experience than do the Regular Air Force pilots.
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Would someone please tell me what I can say that is going to make those 2 pilots feel worse than they already do?
I have no doubt that there has been/will be an inquiry in the States which will determine whether or not charges are to be laid at the feet of these 2 aviators.
Anybody know?
Blue on Blue is perhaps the most tragic occurence in any conflict. I hope that lessons will be learned from this one...
I have no doubt that there has been/will be an inquiry in the States which will determine whether or not charges are to be laid at the feet of these 2 aviators.
Anybody know?
Blue on Blue is perhaps the most tragic occurence in any conflict. I hope that lessons will be learned from this one...
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Civvy question, so 'scuse if verging on the 'dumb' side:
If the Iraqi Army arsenal of conventional weapons was known, and I've never heard anything to the contrary, then the existence of day-glo orange rockets would have been widely known throughout the allied ground and air forces who would presumably come up against such hardware and be on the look out for it.
If indeed the Iraqi arsenal included such hardware, why was the thermal I-D panel/day-glow orange side panels used by coalition forces? If this was a known factor in possible mis I-D, as demonstrated with the 9 UK fatalities during the Gulf War with A-10 vs Warriors, why is this still being used?
BOI summary of incident giving more detail here: Appendix 2, Paras 7 - 10.
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
(Suggest those wishing to pass further comment on this thread read the summary before doing so as it touches upon several points already raised in previous posts - only take a couple of minutes but v.relevant)
If the Iraqi Army arsenal of conventional weapons was known, and I've never heard anything to the contrary, then the existence of day-glo orange rockets would have been widely known throughout the allied ground and air forces who would presumably come up against such hardware and be on the look out for it.
If indeed the Iraqi arsenal included such hardware, why was the thermal I-D panel/day-glow orange side panels used by coalition forces? If this was a known factor in possible mis I-D, as demonstrated with the 9 UK fatalities during the Gulf War with A-10 vs Warriors, why is this still being used?
BOI summary of incident giving more detail here: Appendix 2, Paras 7 - 10.
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
(Suggest those wishing to pass further comment on this thread read the summary before doing so as it touches upon several points already raised in previous posts - only take a couple of minutes but v.relevant)
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Don't know if this will be readable, but for the benefit of those without Acrobat Reader, here goes... from:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
End. (Full report also v.interesting, if you've time.)
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
End. (Full report also v.interesting, if you've time.)
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Bootflap and barndoors, I for one am not condemning the crews or the TAC P, but like the majority on here we simply cannot condone the events following the sad incident.
Yes these things happen in war and yes you are probably under a lot of duress in the cockpit but please spare me the you lot don't know etc etc for that isn't my point. The sad fact about this is that none of that has anything to do with the "no film! lies, lies, and counterlies" that have followed and hampered this case.
That poor lads family have not deserved these past 4 years and I would imagine had it not been for the Sun intervening it would probably have been another 4 years.
Yes these things happen in war and yes you are probably under a lot of duress in the cockpit but please spare me the you lot don't know etc etc for that isn't my point. The sad fact about this is that none of that has anything to do with the "no film! lies, lies, and counterlies" that have followed and hampered this case.
That poor lads family have not deserved these past 4 years and I would imagine had it not been for the Sun intervening it would probably have been another 4 years.
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Watched it it sky news this morning and was gutted just like the two reporters discussing it. My heart goes out to the family. Well done to the Sun for exposing the possible MOD cover up stating that ther was no film. But just like old Lee Clegg the finger is finally pointed to the one that pulled the trigger 
. It is happening too often and something needs to be done.
. It is happening too often and something needs to be done.
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I'm one of the many who will never sit in the cockpit in a warzone doing my best while all around is madness, so I'm in no hurry to condemn these two.
But studying the leaked transcript carefully, I can't help but contrast their approach with the attitude I've seen at first hand among UK aircrew, doing the same job today in Afghanistan. 'If in doubt, don't release' seems to be the first, last and most important rule at all times.
Try as I might I can't avoid the conclusion that these two had considerable doubts - rightly, as it turned out - but still attacked.
There was doubt before the attack. POPOV36 raises the orange panels five times on air, and asks his ground controller: 'Hey, tell me what type of rocket launchers you got up here?' He doesn't know. He's guessing.
Both pilots ask for more information from the ground. One suggests an artillery round is fired at what the ground controllers believe is the target. But POPOV36 doesn't wait for answers and launches his attack. There's no real pressure of time. Nobody on the ground asking him to release.
There is doubt in between the two attacks. POPOV36 asks his wingman, after shooting the 'Iraqi' vehicles: 'That's what you think they are, right?' A minute later he asks the question again. Then he launches another attack.
There is doubt after the attack. Once they're told to abort, that there is 'friendly armour' in the area, they both start swearing like mad. They immediately know they've made a mistake. No apparent confidence in their decision.
OK, agree with posters who say there's no point hanging these guys. They have to live with it. Important thing is to learn lessons.
But are lessons learned? Were they learned after 1991? Were they learned after 2003?
These two pilots were cleared of any wrongdoing and returned to flying duties. Hmmm. OK, the U.S. inquiry had all the evidence before it.
But what's actually been done to prevent a repeat? Have procedures been tightened?
MOD claims it's made 'good progress in these areas', and spent £3.8bn since 2002 on 'projects with combat identification elements.'
Is it enough? Will cowboys in A10s always make it all irrelevant? Should we just get real and accept the risk?
Don't know the answers. I ask the question of those who might.
But studying the leaked transcript carefully, I can't help but contrast their approach with the attitude I've seen at first hand among UK aircrew, doing the same job today in Afghanistan. 'If in doubt, don't release' seems to be the first, last and most important rule at all times.
Try as I might I can't avoid the conclusion that these two had considerable doubts - rightly, as it turned out - but still attacked.
There was doubt before the attack. POPOV36 raises the orange panels five times on air, and asks his ground controller: 'Hey, tell me what type of rocket launchers you got up here?' He doesn't know. He's guessing.
Both pilots ask for more information from the ground. One suggests an artillery round is fired at what the ground controllers believe is the target. But POPOV36 doesn't wait for answers and launches his attack. There's no real pressure of time. Nobody on the ground asking him to release.
There is doubt in between the two attacks. POPOV36 asks his wingman, after shooting the 'Iraqi' vehicles: 'That's what you think they are, right?' A minute later he asks the question again. Then he launches another attack.
There is doubt after the attack. Once they're told to abort, that there is 'friendly armour' in the area, they both start swearing like mad. They immediately know they've made a mistake. No apparent confidence in their decision.
OK, agree with posters who say there's no point hanging these guys. They have to live with it. Important thing is to learn lessons.
But are lessons learned? Were they learned after 1991? Were they learned after 2003?
These two pilots were cleared of any wrongdoing and returned to flying duties. Hmmm. OK, the U.S. inquiry had all the evidence before it.
But what's actually been done to prevent a repeat? Have procedures been tightened?
MOD claims it's made 'good progress in these areas', and spent £3.8bn since 2002 on 'projects with combat identification elements.'
Is it enough? Will cowboys in A10s always make it all irrelevant? Should we just get real and accept the risk?
Don't know the answers. I ask the question of those who might.
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The only sound I hear after the event is of 2 A10 drivers swearing and the scurrying sound of senior officers and politicians running for cover.
The cover-up is the most disgraceful thing about all of this. The crews apparently screwed up. Whether it is considered (by those who have to decide) that they did or not, and, if so, why, are two questions that need answering. A cover-up will not do it. The Pentagon and the MoD are colluding in a conspiracy not only to lie to the American public and the British public, but L/CoH Hull's family and anyone who may follow him, and their respective families as well.
Blue on blue happens. We need to learn from each incident, but it appears we are not. My personal opinion is that these two acted in too gung-ho a manner. We need to know why. Is their training lacking? Profiling US pilots? I don't know. I don't have any answers. That is why we need a full inquiry without the Pentagon trying to close ranks against anyone and everyone. That way they're going to end up with nobody trusting them.
PS How many blue on blue result in UK forces splashing US personnel?
The cover-up is the most disgraceful thing about all of this. The crews apparently screwed up. Whether it is considered (by those who have to decide) that they did or not, and, if so, why, are two questions that need answering. A cover-up will not do it. The Pentagon and the MoD are colluding in a conspiracy not only to lie to the American public and the British public, but L/CoH Hull's family and anyone who may follow him, and their respective families as well.
Blue on blue happens. We need to learn from each incident, but it appears we are not. My personal opinion is that these two acted in too gung-ho a manner. We need to know why. Is their training lacking? Profiling US pilots? I don't know. I don't have any answers. That is why we need a full inquiry without the Pentagon trying to close ranks against anyone and everyone. That way they're going to end up with nobody trusting them.
PS How many blue on blue result in UK forces splashing US personnel?
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Did you ever stop to think maybe the odds favour the US forces carrying out acts of friendly fire more than the Brit forces or any other forces... Why are so many ignorant comments being made here???
The two A-10 pilots don't sound flippant and definitely not "gloating sickeningly" during the strike. Gung ho??? They are killers doing some killing, in the belief they were striking legitimate targets.
How do you know, XX, they weren't fired on all throughout the previous hour or so of the sortie or on other sorties in the area earlier on?
Without losing sight of the fact they obviously misidentified the target with tragic results, there is still a lot of sheer ignorance being displayed here, and partly I'm sure because bagging the yanks is good sport.
These two pilots have to live with it, as does the FAC. Bit hard for any of us to put ourselves in their shoes and dictate what they should or shouldn't have said, in the seconds post-combat.
The two A-10 pilots don't sound flippant and definitely not "gloating sickeningly" during the strike. Gung ho??? They are killers doing some killing, in the belief they were striking legitimate targets.
How do you know, XX, they weren't fired on all throughout the previous hour or so of the sortie or on other sorties in the area earlier on?
Without losing sight of the fact they obviously misidentified the target with tragic results, there is still a lot of sheer ignorance being displayed here, and partly I'm sure because bagging the yanks is good sport.
These two pilots have to live with it, as does the FAC. Bit hard for any of us to put ourselves in their shoes and dictate what they should or shouldn't have said, in the seconds post-combat.
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Playing Devils advocate here Capt Queeg:
You said: How do you know, XX, they weren't fired on all throughout the previous hour or so of the sortie or on other sorties in the area earlier on?
Can I ask how do you know that they did? They don't appear too concerned about the THREAT on the video!
You said: How do you know, XX, they weren't fired on all throughout the previous hour or so of the sortie or on other sorties in the area earlier on?
Can I ask how do you know that they did? They don't appear too concerned about the THREAT on the video!
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I have just listened to the Audio on the Sun's website and was almost in tears. A very, Very sad episode. There are no winners here.....everyone lost.
There but for the grace of god ( and a heap of Recce Training) go I
There but for the grace of god ( and a heap of Recce Training) go I