Blue on Blue.

[rab-k]

Originally Posted by Capt. Queeg

bagging the yanks is good sport.

To use a Yank term, that comment is so lame if it were a horse you'd have to shoot it.

Read my previous post - Para 10 of the joint NAO/MoD report states not only the cause of the incident but goes on to list a number of contributory factors.

Despite these findings, the A10 crews were exonerated and the DoD/MoD have sought to obstruct any subsequent independent examination of these events. (And not for the first time either).

This is not about "bagging yanks", it is about getting to the truth and stopping this s*** from happening again.

BTW - Still no info on the supposed "orange rocket" in the Iraqi inventory then?

[TEEEJ]

"Can anyone tell me how many A10 pilots have been shot down in Iraq?"

Stan,

One A-10 was lost during April 2003 to a hand-held SAM near Baghdad International Airport. That was the only A-10 combat loss in Iraq during 2003 and since. None lost in Afghanistan to date.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83504,00.html

During Jan/Feb 1991 there was 5 A-10 lost to Iraqi ground fire.

http://www.pats-world.com/gulfwar/

[vortexadminman]

I am not a massive fan of the US way of operating at all. I do not think that we can sit back and harp on about training though. Not been a FJ mate can't really say how much recce you people do although I have asked a lot of people over the years and theatres about NATO kit. Been a bit of a spotter and having done a lot of recce courses I still ask peeps on the Sqn whats that? When it comes to US kit we ain't that good, normal reply is "I don't know some yank crap" OK ID 'd as US thats a good thing. But hoofing around at a few hundred knots low level in a situation they have been briefed is a war zone, plus been told on radio all in front of you is not ours ( Not being under the same built in if in doubt don't shoot mentality as we are) who can say what you would do. Yes they questioned the orange panels. and were told ???. Nothing in this is forgivable at all especially the smoke and mirrors and that made this sad loss fall away until now.

[In Tor Wot]

Lessons learned?

A number of people on here have asked the legitimate question of why lessons weren't learnt from an almost identical incident during GW1 between the warrior and A-10 (12 years previously). The answer is that the lessons were learnt - by the U.S., and they have heavily invested in Blue Force Tracker, and the means to display tracks at the tactical level (Links, C2PC etc). Like it or not, they at least got their **it in a sock.

Meanwhile the UK stuck its head into the sand (being polite as to where they actually stuck it!!), and spent millions (billions?) of pounds ‘investigating solutions’ and have produced ? - absolutely nothing. The NAO report patted everyone on the back for their ‘vigorous research’ when it should have been kicking someone’s ar$e for not buying equipment off the shelf 6 years ago that would have stopped (or at least reduced its likely hood to a minimum) this kind of incident from occurring.

I’m not going to throw stones a the A-10 drivers as I don’t know all the circumstances of the incident and I refuse to believe that they set off that day with the intention of killing their coalition partner’s soldiers. I do, however, think that the deliberate obfuscation and downright lies by the DOD/MOD should be answered for - preferably in the coroners court.

[Tigs2]

Human Error occurs and it is easy to blame these two guys. I doubt they sleep much these days. They never would have attacked the guys had they known they were friendly, i.e there was no intent. However, there was intent in the cover up! The people who covered this up knew the EXACT facts (the existance of the vid) and covered it up (isn't this obstructing the cause of justice, or perverting the cause of justice?? oy! lawers, where are you?).
Vevechookattack hit the nail on the head

I have just listened to the Audio on the Sun's website and was almost in tears. A very, Very sad episode. There are no winners here.....everyone lost.
There but for the grace of god ( and a heap of Recce Training) go I

The thing is the UK Mil have always done recce for ALL nations (enemy and friendly), when i was in GW1 i flew to a US Patriot Battery to be asked by the commander in charge of the stinger support unit asking "hey whos flying the pink Hips??"
The pink 'Hips' were infact Pumas of the coilition forces!! How nervous were the puma guys, particularly knowing that Saddam had Hips!!
To those commenting on the use of orange panels if the enemy have aircraft, Saddam had no aircraft during GW2, therefore Orange panels are a legite way of initially saying 'i am on your side'!
Sincere condolences to the family and all the lads involved.
Why has the coroners contract not been renewed?? anybody know??

[Archimedes]

Without wishing to be overly cynical about the MoD's motivations, the video may have rather undermined the following pledge by Hoon to the Commons on 7 Jan 2003:

As for the question of friendly fire, we are engaged in a process of ensuring that combat identification is dealt with satisfactorily. There is no single technological solution to that difficult problem, but we will acquire new equipment that will be available in time for any potential conflict in the Gulf. Obviously, I cannot go into precise details, but, as for combat identification, I can assure the House that British troops will be able to work alongside American forces entirely safely and satisfactorily(my bold)

(source Hansard (just prior to Column 29).

One can either say that Hoon was being extremely foolish in making such a bold assertion (demonstrating that he learned very little about the nature of military operations despite his long tenure in the MoD), or that he misled the House.

The context of this observation was that the former CO of 3RRF had written to the Telegraph pointing out that for all the MoD's fine words, it appeared that nothing had been done to try to prevent a replication of the A-10/Warrior Blue-on-Blue. The letter was quoted in full on the army means - click. IIRC, there was considerable publicity at the time about the letter.

So having been warned prior to deployment that there was a problem, the government asserted that there would be no problem, only to be proven disastrously wrong. Without wishing to indulge in a spot of tin-foil hat wearing, I can't help wondering whether denying that the video existed was some sort of MoD self-protection measure to prevent anyone from suggesting that it demonstrated that the relatively rudimentary measures in place for identification in no way met the promises of the (then) Sec of State and creating problems for the MoD?

[Tigs2]

Archimedes
you are right! The MOD have had 14 years to sort this out since GW1!(Army please help me here, it does not cost that much to get good IFF kit fitted to ground vehicles surely)

I really don't believe that Hoon or any of the other buffoons come out with these statements before they have been approved by Bliar at a 'board' meeting.

Bliar, you are named and shamed and shamed.....Get out!(Then again why should he resign and get away with it?? They send people to prison at the moment for a lot lot less)

[Two's in]

So while we are waiting for the multi-billion dollar IFF solution, would it be reasonable to expect CAS crews to spend 30 minutes a day on vehicle recognition training as part of the CR package?

...the pilots had received minimal recognition training on allied fighting vehicles...

In the predictable days of keeping Ivan out of the Fulda gap, every other met brief was followed by a 30 minute AFV lesson. For the cost of a a few slides and a projector, at least we all knew what we were likely to be shooting at, and consequently who was batting for our team.
In my experience "Fog of war" is one of those great testosterone laden phrases that lends credibilty to poor planning and execution.

[ORAC]

Why has the coroners contract not been renewed?? anybody know??

BBC: ....The Oxford assistant deputy coroner is one of three who are losing their jobs. It is understood Mr Walker's contract will end in June of this year, following the expected completion of hearings in to a backlog of military inquests in Oxford. Two other coroners brought in at the same time will also not be asked to continue.

More staff were appointed in Oxford last year by the Department for Constitutional affairs after complaints from service families. The majority of inquests are held in Oxford because the bodies of service personnel are returned to RAF Brize Norton nearby.

A spokesman for the Department for Constitutional Affairs said: "To reduce the backlog of military inquests held in Oxfordshire going back several years, three extra coroners were appointed in 2005. Sir Richard Curtis was appointed until December last year and heard six inquests. Selena Lynch and Andrew Walker have heard most of the 85 inquests identified as in the backlog".

The government believes that these extra resources can complete all 85 inquests by May 2007......

[London Mil]

Rather a bold assumption being made that the repatriation rate will drop?

[tucumseh]

In Tor Wot

"Meanwhile the UK stuck its head into the sand, and spent millions (billions?) of pounds ‘investigating solutions’ and have produced ? - absolutely nothing. The NAO report patted everyone on the back for their ‘vigorous research’ when it should have been kicking someone’s ar$e for not buying equipment off the shelf 6 years ago that would have stopped (or at least reduced its likely hood to a minimum) this kind of incident from occurring".


Spot on about NAO. As usual, MoD probably offered up a poodle to spin the lies, while making sure no-one who knows the truth gets near the committee. Perhaps they should have asked what is the MoD's policy on interoperability with non-UK forces. Or with our own forces, for that matter.

Looking at this from the US' viewpoint, they have a far greater Combat ID capability than we do, and their training is probably predominantly geared around that. It is not wholly unreasonable for them to expect that any minority ally (e.g. UK) bridges the capability / interoperability gap to protect their own forces. We simply cannot keep padding out our URDs and doctrine with the assumption that the US will bridge the gaps. I suspect this point has been made behind the scenes in no uncertain terms.

As ever, the MoD's actions stink.

[BattlerBritain]

Having watched Channel 4 news last night where they interviewed a senior American official who said that they supplied the MoD with the vid straight after the incident and that they have co-operated with everything that the MoD have requested I get the distinct impression that the MoD is about as much use as t*ts-on-a-nun.

Looks like MoD aren't even asking the questions (plausible deniability?)

The only thing the Yanks don't seem to want to do is let their pilots appear in a Civilian court to be held responsible for military actions. They say "How can a civilian court judge these actions?", which seems fair to me.

You know, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was the Yanks that gave the vid to the Sun just to bypass MoD.

It does appear though that nothing seems to have been learnt by the Yanks about CAS and supporting 'friendly' forces since Normandy in 1944. What was the saying they used then?
"When the RAF appears, the Germans duck. When the Luftwaffe appears, the Allies duck. When the Americans appear, everybody ducks."

Concur with the voices above about simple AFV recognition training. If I can tell the difference between a T-54 and a Warrior and between a ZIL truck and a Scimitar why can't a CAS pilot?

And I'm a bl**dy civvy!

[Famous Pierre]

Bang to rights

Spare me the 'fog of war' crap, I was there that day. The weather was reasonable with good vis. These guys had absolutely no excuse to mistake a tiny bright orange tracked Scimitar with a massive black wheeled Scud launcher. Especially after the first strike, when they passed so close to the wagons that the guys in the troop could see the pilots' helmets. And red smoke was thrown. The geography was off (poor FAC skills), the troop were further from the river, heading north, and the 'Scud' was reported as static 200m from it; the river is a K wide, you can't miss it. This was poor drills, both FAC and A-10.
As for being shot at, the 51st Mech Inf had largely disappeared by then and the 7Tk Div were still well to the North; there were no rounds going skywards. As for recognition, that's their core business. Despite this, all the right efforts were made to educate the US pilots on vehicle recognition by sending our wagons down to the A-10 base so they could see them before the war.
So no excuse, as the tape clearly shows, they knew they were bang to rights and I for one am delighted it's now in the open. In this case war was not a good enough excuse. RiP Matty.

[NURSE]

The basic problems with things like blueforce tracker is cost and like the RAF the army only has a finite budget. Its also a gadget that can go wrong so UK relied on visual recogntiton training at basic level in 03 of UK equipments chaning to Principle allies kit and possible enemeys kit and now to nothing most army personel receive no recognititon training.
The army made a point ofmaking sure all vehicles going north had thermal panels, visual v's and orange panels but from experience of myself,friends and media reports the US soldier did not have any understanding of thease.
From a communications perspective telling the Americans anything over radio was problematic as their systems and our don't net together well. I fond it easier to ring whitehall and get put through to US telephone network to speak to people on same camp.
If we were to purchase a combat tracker system would we uy our own? would it be compatible with allies systems? would they allow us band width to use it? and what happens when it goes wrong as IFF did with fatal consequences in 03?

[Northern Circuit]

I cannot be so forgiving.
As soon as the word 'orange' had been mentioned, that should have been enough to prompt not to engage unless a positive ID had been made.

[BattlerBritain]

I also have to wonder what would happen if an RAF plane strafed an American unit?

How would the Yanks feel then?

But that would never happen would it.

'Coz RAF planes are now so politically correct they don't carry guns!!

[Wrathmonk]

Battler

Not quite true. The Tornado GR4, Tornado F3, Jaguar and Hawk are all still gun equipped (not forgetting the guns hung out of the side of Helicopters various).

Granted, the Harrier does not have a gun and the Typhoon doesn't (yet?). But given the above we will still have a strafe capability for many years to come.

[XXTSGR]

In my experience, US forces rely very heavily on technology in an attempt to root out "human error". Brit forces tend to rely much more heavily on training and lower-level technology.

Found this today:-

• 1991 US A-10 plane attacks British armoured personnel carriers in the Gulf, killing nine soldiers
• April 1994 Nato delegation of 26 people, including two high-ranking British army officers, die when their US Blackhawk helicopter is shot down in Iraq by American fighters
• 2002 US F-16 pilot kills four Canadian soldiers when he drops a laser-guided bomb on a Canadian live-fire exercise near Kandahar, Afghanistan
• 2003 American aircraft attacks a Kurdish and US special forces convoy, killing 15 people. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed dies in the attack. Journalists Tom Giles and John Simpson both injured
• 2003 RAF Tornado pilot and navigator mistaken for an Iraqi misslile and shot down by US gunners. The pilot was trying to land near the Kuwait border, having carried out a successful sortie in an earlier offensive on Iraqi positions. A US general blames the “fog of war”.
• 2003 Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull and two Iraqi civilians die and four other soldiers seriously injured when their convoy is attacked by two A-10 aircraft near Basra in southern Iraq. The incident occurred despite excellent visibility and the convoy displaying the correct panels identifying them as “friendlies”
• 2005 Italian intelligence agent Nicola Calipari killed and journalist Giuliana Sgrena wounded in Baghdad after US forces open fire on their car. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari
• 2006 Two US A-10 Thunderbolts attack NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Mark Anthony Graham, a Canadian soldier, and seriously wounding five others during a mission to seize a Taliban stronghold

Contrary to how it may seem, I personally attribute very little blame to the individual pilots in this case. I attribute far more blame to their lack of training, to the ethos in which they operate, to their controllers, and to the US Military itself in an atmosphere which prefers to err on the side of ensuring the bad guys are wiped out rather than trying not to cause unnecessary "collateral damage".

[endplay]

On a site such as this it’s only natural for the aircrew to be defended but I find myself agreeing with a minority of posters who take the view that the pilots must accept the lion’s share of responsibility for this tragedy. They clearly saw the orange panels and clearly understood their significance. Such a sighting should not absolutely guarantee ground troops immunity from attack as it is too open to compromise but it should have given the pilots more pause for thought than it appears to have done.

The clusterf**k over the video evidence is separate issue and whilst I would like to buy a beer for whoever (in MoD??) released it to the Sun I hope I never get the opportunity. If he/she is ever identified the extradition papers will be signed quicker than you can say “Yo’ Mister President”

[rab-k]

Northern Circuit - Couldn't agree more.

The BoI states that the A10 crew twice engaged the patrol "without the required authorisation", yet they were exonerated? Watching the HUD-cam/CVR footage again, I can't help wondering if this wasn't a case of being in too much of a hurry to 'frag some bad guys' prior to having to RTB:

POPOV35 - "We need to think about getting home"

POPOV36 - "Ah, three point, ah, six, is what it says"

POPOV35 - "Yeah. I know. I, I'm talking about time wise"

POPOV36 - "I'm thinking (indistinct) some of these rocket launchers 'd be great"

90 seconds later the patrol is attacked...

PS XXTSGR - You forgot Terry Lloyd: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6046950.stm