Blue on Blue.
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I wonder if there will ever be any evidence of "The MoD" having made real efforts to co-operate with the Coroner and provide/declassify the tape.
I rather suspect that (with Government direction?) they were never going to even attempt to get the tape to the Inquest. After all these events occured some 4 years ago. It would be nice to have my suspicions proved wrong.
Perhaps another enquiry should be launched along the lines of a suspicion of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.
My, albeit limited, understanding is that a Coroner's Court is one of the most powerful in the land.
Does anyone really expect the Septics to deliver the pilots to give their evidence??? Special relationship? Reciprocal extradition policy? - Pull the other one!!!
Tony's new Corporate Manslaughter legislation pops up in one's head by the way! (Remind me again who is the Big Boss of the American Armed Forces???)
I rather suspect that (with Government direction?) they were never going to even attempt to get the tape to the Inquest. After all these events occured some 4 years ago. It would be nice to have my suspicions proved wrong.
Perhaps another enquiry should be launched along the lines of a suspicion of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.
My, albeit limited, understanding is that a Coroner's Court is one of the most powerful in the land.
Does anyone really expect the Septics to deliver the pilots to give their evidence??? Special relationship? Reciprocal extradition policy? - Pull the other one!!!
Tony's new Corporate Manslaughter legislation pops up in one's head by the way! (Remind me again who is the Big Boss of the American Armed Forces???)
TAC Int Bloke
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Everyone f***s up occasionally, most of the time we get away with it, let's no decend into another 'slagging the Yanks' stance. Two pilots, overworked, adrenalin pumping, unclear tactical situation - let he who is without sin cast the first stone
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What struck me on watching the full tape on The Sun website was that the two A-10s were tasked with attacking targets in revertments including flat bed trucks. They i.d these targets and get confirmation from the FAC/TAC-P that these are the correct targets. Then one pilot sees the British vehicles and despite being on low fuel they decide to go after them and not the original targets (which they never attacked).
Thread Starter
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Granted Maple 01, and stones shouldn't be directed at the pilots but at those persons further up the food chain who've suppressed this evidence over the last four years. To err is human, etc, etc. To cover-up is criminal.
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Maple 01 - yes of course FUBARS occur, but a genuine accident is different from the sort of situation we are seeing here where a wilful lack of clear thinking seems to have been going on. Under pressure though? God help us if these guys were in a really pressured situation under hostile fire and in bad weather as opposed to sitting high up in clear skies with total air superiority!
This shouldn't be seen as a "beat the Yanks" stance but commenting on what seemed a very sloppy operation from all sides, irrespective of nationality. The cover up makes everything a million times worse.
This shouldn't be seen as a "beat the Yanks" stance but commenting on what seemed a very sloppy operation from all sides, irrespective of nationality. The cover up makes everything a million times worse.
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Maple 01.
Did I slag off the pilots? - I think not!
I suggested that arrangements should be made for them to give evidence at the Inquest - under compulsion if necessary.
I further remark about what appears to be an attempted cover-up.
Dont assume; READ THE POST!
Let's use the Inquest to further attempts to prevent avoidable blue on blue episodes. And maybe, by punitive action if needed, even to encourage others not to attempt to organise cover-ups.
I also, of course, offer my condolences to the bereaved and the injured.
[Edited for spelling correction]
Did I slag off the pilots? - I think not!
I suggested that arrangements should be made for them to give evidence at the Inquest - under compulsion if necessary.
I further remark about what appears to be an attempted cover-up.
Dont assume; READ THE POST!
Let's use the Inquest to further attempts to prevent avoidable blue on blue episodes. And maybe, by punitive action if needed, even to encourage others not to attempt to organise cover-ups.
I also, of course, offer my condolences to the bereaved and the injured.
[Edited for spelling correction]
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Perhaps to much too hope that this might shed some light for the masses on the 'utterly, utterly useless' aircrew who were unwilling to drop in Afghanistan because they couldn't get a positive ident on their target. Or was that last year's story and old hat.
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Support for the Aircrew
Firstly, my sincere condolences to the families involved. This was a tragic accident that I am sure will have affected the lives of the both the soldiers families and the aircrew.
Too all those that are quick to sling mud I can only assume that you have no idea how diffiult a job CAS is. The pilots are clearly working hard and have made the situation fit what they want to see. They want to do their very best to help the forces on the ground. In this instance there has been a terrible mistake. The pilots will no doubt have to sholder that cross for the rest of their days. Hindsight, with a pause button, in an air conditioned office at 1g on the ground with no one shooting at you is very different place. I hope the nintendo warrior aircrew on proon save their comments for more appropriate threads.
I might add that just about any frontline military jets video is secret. I do not think seeing this tape out of context adds anything to the corroners judgement. He cannot understand the environment which the aircrew are working. To err is human. Lets learn from this and move on.
Too all those that are quick to sling mud I can only assume that you have no idea how diffiult a job CAS is. The pilots are clearly working hard and have made the situation fit what they want to see. They want to do their very best to help the forces on the ground. In this instance there has been a terrible mistake. The pilots will no doubt have to sholder that cross for the rest of their days. Hindsight, with a pause button, in an air conditioned office at 1g on the ground with no one shooting at you is very different place. I hope the nintendo warrior aircrew on proon save their comments for more appropriate threads.
I might add that just about any frontline military jets video is secret. I do not think seeing this tape out of context adds anything to the corroners judgement. He cannot understand the environment which the aircrew are working. To err is human. Lets learn from this and move on.
Web pilot,
I wasn't making assumptions about your experience, just read all your previous posts.
As I said in my previous, R/T discip on a discreet frequency is not always highest priority, whilst you are in a 3-dimensional CAS scenario in Iraq trying to ident or missident a tgt with the help of GFAC or AFAC and coordinate your wingman whilst also listening to RHWR, AWACS + numerous other agencies some of which you might be trying to control, there but for the grace of God and Positive ID go many of us. I am not defending what happened, it was not a pleasant outcome for anyone and the tgt should have been positively identified by GFAC/AFAC or cockpit, see rule 1 and 2.
Ivor
I wasn't making assumptions about your experience, just read all your previous posts.
As I said in my previous, R/T discip on a discreet frequency is not always highest priority, whilst you are in a 3-dimensional CAS scenario in Iraq trying to ident or missident a tgt with the help of GFAC or AFAC and coordinate your wingman whilst also listening to RHWR, AWACS + numerous other agencies some of which you might be trying to control, there but for the grace of God and Positive ID go many of us. I am not defending what happened, it was not a pleasant outcome for anyone and the tgt should have been positively identified by GFAC/AFAC or cockpit, see rule 1 and 2.
Ivor
Certainly CAS is outside my experience, but professionalism isn't and I stand by my comment.
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Heavybuffet.
I suspect that the pilots will never be appearing in front of the Coroner - even in closed session. The tape is, therefore, possibly the best evidence he is going to get to represent the actions/considerations of the trigger puller(s?).
The tape is therefore of enormous significance. The USAF or RAF could eprobably offer up expert witnesses (any volunteers from the 'self-declared SME' Prooners?) to put the video evidence in context. Do remember that tragically the Oxford Coroners have steadily been gaining a lot of experience in similar matters.
Ultimately though, nothing better than to have the pilots appear in person!
I suspect that the pilots will never be appearing in front of the Coroner - even in closed session. The tape is, therefore, possibly the best evidence he is going to get to represent the actions/considerations of the trigger puller(s?).
The tape is therefore of enormous significance. The USAF or RAF could eprobably offer up expert witnesses (any volunteers from the 'self-declared SME' Prooners?) to put the video evidence in context. Do remember that tragically the Oxford Coroners have steadily been gaining a lot of experience in similar matters.
Ultimately though, nothing better than to have the pilots appear in person!
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Guys, is anyone else left in no doubt about the contempt both we and our families are held in by the MOD? Not only could they not be bothered to source the video but coldly looked the bereaved family in the eye and told them it didn't exist! Watch and learn people.
Fly safe
B
Fly safe
B
WP,
yes read some of your threads prior to posting 1st and all before 2nd. Whilst I don't disagree with you about professionalism, unless you've tried ML, LL, Day or night CAS you may not see the necessity for the chat.
Ivor.
Rule 1 and 2 still apply.
yes read some of your threads prior to posting 1st and all before 2nd. Whilst I don't disagree with you about professionalism, unless you've tried ML, LL, Day or night CAS you may not see the necessity for the chat.
Ivor.
Rule 1 and 2 still apply.
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They were not under exceptional pressure. Close Air Support was their job, for which they were selected and intensively trained. Orange markings on a potential target means leave alone.
They were gung-ho, trigger-happy and unprofessional.
The official misinformation and cover-up makes it much worse.
A sorry affair, especially for the family of the bereaved.
They were gung-ho, trigger-happy and unprofessional.
The official misinformation and cover-up makes it much worse.
A sorry affair, especially for the family of the bereaved.
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Oh Heavybuffet.
I also meant to ask how do you think the family of Lance Corporal Hull would react to your insensitive and crass remark of "Lets learn from this and move on." They deserve a full and co-operative enquiry and the parties involved in this attempted cover-up should be ashamed.
Sadly it is of course not unique. The approaches to the Pentagon should be from the very top - Harriet Harman and other Ministers have tried to get witnesses and evidence to Coroners in vain many times.
Bliar should speak to Dubbya and insist on a result over this and other matters of non-co-operation.
I also meant to ask how do you think the family of Lance Corporal Hull would react to your insensitive and crass remark of "Lets learn from this and move on." They deserve a full and co-operative enquiry and the parties involved in this attempted cover-up should be ashamed.
Sadly it is of course not unique. The approaches to the Pentagon should be from the very top - Harriet Harman and other Ministers have tried to get witnesses and evidence to Coroners in vain many times.
Bliar should speak to Dubbya and insist on a result over this and other matters of non-co-operation.
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I see a lot of comments about the stress these guys were under and how different it is up there to seeing it on the ground.
forgive my ignorance but as highly trained and professional pilots isn't that the whole idea of combat flying, being calm and able to make the right decision under pressure ?
To see some combat pilots use it as a reason to not question the actions of these in this case is disconcerting for sure.
forgive my ignorance but as highly trained and professional pilots isn't that the whole idea of combat flying, being calm and able to make the right decision under pressure ?
To see some combat pilots use it as a reason to not question the actions of these in this case is disconcerting for sure.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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I think a lot of people are missing the real point here! Not to take any of the grief away from the relatives but Blue on Blue happens all the time it's an occupational hazard. The real story here is that yet again the MOD and its servants have lied, to the relatives, to the public and to the Coroner. I sincerely hope the coroner returns an unlawful killing verdict but what chance the pilots would be extradited under Bliars wonderful extradition treaty? The Natwest three went quick enough though, all one way with the Spams isn’t it?
Just like their Lords and Masters in Westminster the MOD show no honour or courage in covering up such mistakes. I am so glad I do not work for people like that any more, I pity those of you who do..
Just like their Lords and Masters in Westminster the MOD show no honour or courage in covering up such mistakes. I am so glad I do not work for people like that any more, I pity those of you who do..
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The cockpit video at the heart of a row over the "friendly fire" death of a British soldier could now be shown at his inquest, a coroner's official says.
Mr Webb told the BBC the Sun has promised to give the coroner's court a copy of the video.
Mr Webb told the BBC the Sun has promised to give the coroner's court a copy of the video.
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IFF
The real tragedy here is that after similar incidents in GW1, recommendations were made to fit vehicles with some sort of IFF. Why 13,14,15 years later are we still relying on orange dayglo stickers to identify friendly vehicles to aircraft. Am i the only one that finds this amazing?! Surely there must be some sort of portable IFF equipment out there that could be 'signed out' as each vehicle goes on patrol to stop this from happening?! Why have the MOD/government yet again failed to act on recommendations made over 15 years ago! Money i know you scream back at me. The cost of losing a warrior and a few troops every couple of years is far cheaper than new kit! Thanks agaain for not looking after the very people who do your bidding and make your beds safe to sleep in at night.
Rant over!
Rant over!