Red Arrows to be chopped? Again!
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Given that the Hawks will be worn-out in three years or so, it would seem likely that the team will continue to operate them until they're out of hours.
Perhaps it's a cynical view, but it would be the most appropriate time for the bean-counters to let the proverbial axe fall, as it will enable the MoD to simply say that they are not "chopping" the team - but that the team's aircraft are simply no longer airworthy. It's the perfect opportunity, so you can only expect it to be used
Perhaps it's a cynical view, but it would be the most appropriate time for the bean-counters to let the proverbial axe fall, as it will enable the MoD to simply say that they are not "chopping" the team - but that the team's aircraft are simply no longer airworthy. It's the perfect opportunity, so you can only expect it to be used
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unfazed: you're right. Smaller countries put up better jets for their display teams.
Lucky for them they're not fighting very expensive wars at the same time. Sadly, bean counters rule these days - to the extent it endangers those at the sharp end.
I personally have difficulty with a Typhoon display team when a Para in Afghanistan is issued with cheap ****ty 0.5mm ammunition that constantly jams his weapon. I saw a video on You Tube of just that, and it certainly made me have a game of priorities. It was a full-on firefight and the end result could have ended up in close-quarter fighting with entrenching tools. That's something from which we here in the mil aviation community are mostly distanced. Thankfully. All because some arse saved a few quid somewhere.
Lucky for them they're not fighting very expensive wars at the same time. Sadly, bean counters rule these days - to the extent it endangers those at the sharp end.
I personally have difficulty with a Typhoon display team when a Para in Afghanistan is issued with cheap ****ty 0.5mm ammunition that constantly jams his weapon. I saw a video on You Tube of just that, and it certainly made me have a game of priorities. It was a full-on firefight and the end result could have ended up in close-quarter fighting with entrenching tools. That's something from which we here in the mil aviation community are mostly distanced. Thankfully. All because some arse saved a few quid somewhere.
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Monty77
unfazed: you're right. Smaller countries put up better jets for their display teams.
Lucky for them they're not fighting very expensive wars at the same time. Sadly, bean counters rule these days - to the extent it endangers those at the sharp end. Bean counters should not rule on such serious matters especially bean counters who also make bad decisions based on incorrect information - Where are the leaders with the big moustaches who are meant to kick the bean counters arses and tell them how things will be (or have we got too many YES men in command ?)
I personally have difficulty with a Typhoon display team when a Para in Afghanistan is issued with cheap ****ty 0.5mm ammunition that constantly jams his weapon. I saw a video on You Tube of just that, and it certainly made me have a game of priorities. It was a full-on firefight and the end result could have ended up in close-quarter fighting with entrenching tools. That's something from which we here in the mil aviation community are mostly distanced. Thankfully. All because some arse saved a few quid somewhere. Quite agree with you but again it comes down to effective and strong military leadership with the determination not to let things get that far - Why can't we do things properly like we used to ? It's not because we don't have the money, it's because we have inneficient processes and systems that waste money and innefective leaders who allow this situation to prevail.
Anyway if the bean counters had their way the Red's would become a unicycle display team. My point is that there should not be a conflict between REDS flying a decent fighter jet and a well trained military force with appropriate capability and equipment.
unfazed: you're right. Smaller countries put up better jets for their display teams.
Lucky for them they're not fighting very expensive wars at the same time. Sadly, bean counters rule these days - to the extent it endangers those at the sharp end. Bean counters should not rule on such serious matters especially bean counters who also make bad decisions based on incorrect information - Where are the leaders with the big moustaches who are meant to kick the bean counters arses and tell them how things will be (or have we got too many YES men in command ?)
I personally have difficulty with a Typhoon display team when a Para in Afghanistan is issued with cheap ****ty 0.5mm ammunition that constantly jams his weapon. I saw a video on You Tube of just that, and it certainly made me have a game of priorities. It was a full-on firefight and the end result could have ended up in close-quarter fighting with entrenching tools. That's something from which we here in the mil aviation community are mostly distanced. Thankfully. All because some arse saved a few quid somewhere. Quite agree with you but again it comes down to effective and strong military leadership with the determination not to let things get that far - Why can't we do things properly like we used to ? It's not because we don't have the money, it's because we have inneficient processes and systems that waste money and innefective leaders who allow this situation to prevail.
Anyway if the bean counters had their way the Red's would become a unicycle display team. My point is that there should not be a conflict between REDS flying a decent fighter jet and a well trained military force with appropriate capability and equipment.
Gentleman Aviator
The Hawks were lifed for another 10 years last year so, you're talking poddle mate.
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As an aside, apart from advertising BAE Systems aircraft, and providing BAE Syatems jobs to build Hawks for little countries airforces, what do the Reds do for the RAF.
Apart from the recruiting value?!
If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.
I'm sure a lot of the crew would agree while they sit around in the dump that was once a legendary airfield, having to turn away sponsorship money because of Treasury rules. Get BAe and a few others to pay for it, leave the roundels on and get the RAF to pay the salaries only (as it's good training for the blues and reds) and job's a goddun.
Apart from the recruiting value?!
If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.
I'm sure a lot of the crew would agree while they sit around in the dump that was once a legendary airfield, having to turn away sponsorship money because of Treasury rules. Get BAe and a few others to pay for it, leave the roundels on and get the RAF to pay the salaries only (as it's good training for the blues and reds) and job's a goddun.
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When Scampton was 'closed' in the 90s it was planned to sell the land & had already been earmarked as the site of an open prison. Then it was discovered that the planning permission from the 50s for the extension to the runway which altered the course of the road (A19?) that ran past the base required the MOD to straighten it if the place was shut & use of the runway no longer required! Cost approx £4 million.
One of the old bomb dumps was found to be contaminated & the cost to clean it up to modern H&S standards was another £3 million. (Both figures 1990s costs)
This rather spoiled the economics of selling off the place.
One of the old bomb dumps was found to be contaminated & the cost to clean it up to modern H&S standards was another £3 million. (Both figures 1990s costs)
This rather spoiled the economics of selling off the place.
Guess he got the sums wrong in a big way!!!
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The bloke who complained that the Reds are egomaniacs is either living on a different planet or has a king-sized chip. I have met them several times and found them to be a very pleasant, modest and mature bunch.
The Reds are the RAF's main point of contact with the public, and the great unwashed love them and roll up in their droves to watch them. They usually steal the show at any event they perform at. The politicians know this and the last time the Chiefs tried to scrub the Reds, Downing Street told them to sort out their ideas.
Besides, all this stuff is penis-envy from the grunts and the fisheads.
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From: The Chief Secretary of the Treasury
To: The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Dear Gordon
RAF Display Asset Restructuring
If we are to continue funding TB's bids for the history books, we'll need to restructure the Armed Forces to provide a more flexible, robust and capable force with greater reach and deployability. An obvious candidate for radical transformation is the RAF's Red Arrows.
3 concurrent studies at £2.4M each by PWC, Touche-Ross and your own Smith Institute have reached the same conclusion as to a successor. I can confidently recommend the Red Arrows' replacement.
To: The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Dear Gordon
RAF Display Asset Restructuring
If we are to continue funding TB's bids for the history books, we'll need to restructure the Armed Forces to provide a more flexible, robust and capable force with greater reach and deployability. An obvious candidate for radical transformation is the RAF's Red Arrows.
3 concurrent studies at £2.4M each by PWC, Touche-Ross and your own Smith Institute have reached the same conclusion as to a successor. I can confidently recommend the Red Arrows' replacement.
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What a sorry state we are in.
The new Typhoon PR video is based on a scenario out of the Cold War and has to use CGI to make it's point.
People are arguing over the need, or otherwise, for a display team.
In the meantime, soldiers are fighting two wars with minimal air support. Little or no CAS, a small number of SH and a clapped out AT fleet.
What was that phrase again? utterly, utterly.............
The new Typhoon PR video is based on a scenario out of the Cold War and has to use CGI to make it's point.
People are arguing over the need, or otherwise, for a display team.
In the meantime, soldiers are fighting two wars with minimal air support. Little or no CAS, a small number of SH and a clapped out AT fleet.
What was that phrase again? utterly, utterly.............
Each of the services have their own PR front to keep themselves in the public eye. I agree with your comments regarding CAS, SH & AT, but they should be properly funded by the Treasury. Scrapping the Reds, which would save less than the office chair budget for MOD main bldg, would not make up for this lack of funding, but would seriously affect the public's view of the RAF.
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Its news to me that the Reds' competition (the French Tricolors, the USAF Thunderbirds, the USN Blue Angels or the Wop spagetti benders(?) are part-timers. When 208 had the Middle-East franchise we did it as a secondary duty. But usually there was not a hell of a lot else to do so we did much aerobatics. But I do not pretend that our slickness and precision matched the Reds.
The bloke who complained that the Reds are egomaniacs is either living on a different planet or has a king-sized chip. I have met them several times and found them to be a very pleasant, modest and mature bunch.
The Reds are the RAF's main point of contact with the public, and the great unwashed love them and roll up in their droves to watch them. They usually steal the show at any event they perform at. The politicians know this and the last time the Chiefs tried to scrub the Reds, Downing Street told them to sort out their ideas.
Besides, all this stuff is penis-envy from the grunts and the fisheads.
The bloke who complained that the Reds are egomaniacs is either living on a different planet or has a king-sized chip. I have met them several times and found them to be a very pleasant, modest and mature bunch.
The Reds are the RAF's main point of contact with the public, and the great unwashed love them and roll up in their droves to watch them. They usually steal the show at any event they perform at. The politicians know this and the last time the Chiefs tried to scrub the Reds, Downing Street told them to sort out their ideas.
Besides, all this stuff is penis-envy from the grunts and the fisheads.
I remember watching a vid of the Red's trip to the US quite a few years ago at a show at Andrews AFB, and IIRC despite only being able to do a flat/rolling show due cloud the Septic Tanks were in awe, and that's saying something
Keep the Reds, slash the beancounters.
SF
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TIME TO GET RID OF THIS 'SAD' GOVERNMENT!!
To 'Kill' the Reds would contribute to the end of the RAF?
This is just an excuse for Mr Brown or whatever he is? to put more money in his pocket or to pay off their 'Silly' unnecesary loans?
What a Government = The sooner they go the better!
I don't think the Government appreciate anyone or anything anymore?
They don't appreciate the Pilot's of the Red Arrows, And how hard they train to perform a perfect display 50 + times a year.
They just think they are 'brillcream' boys and are just the 'Fancy' goods of the RAF!
Since Labour came into power they have destroyed everything that was succesful, We are all bored of them now, and that's just looking at Mr Brown's face!!
To finish the Reds would be = Unfair, Unprofessional, and the least Embarrasing in front of the World's Aerospace.
This Country is getting 'Sillier' every week, and I am Contemplating Emigrating if it doesn't improve = Im bored of it all day - everyday!!
The problem with this Government is they don't respect what our Services do, They are just numbers at the end of the day on a piece of paper?
Whatever we say the Government will always do what they want, and when they want!
I don't think it matter's how hard the Reds train & display, They are living on a potential 'Timebomb' = It doesn't bare thinking about.
Mr Blair & Mr Brown = Your time is nearly up?
Anyone who says otherwise = is on planet ZOB!
Fingers xx The Reds.
Regards.
To 'Kill' the Reds would contribute to the end of the RAF?
This is just an excuse for Mr Brown or whatever he is? to put more money in his pocket or to pay off their 'Silly' unnecesary loans?
What a Government = The sooner they go the better!
I don't think the Government appreciate anyone or anything anymore?
They don't appreciate the Pilot's of the Red Arrows, And how hard they train to perform a perfect display 50 + times a year.
They just think they are 'brillcream' boys and are just the 'Fancy' goods of the RAF!
Since Labour came into power they have destroyed everything that was succesful, We are all bored of them now, and that's just looking at Mr Brown's face!!
To finish the Reds would be = Unfair, Unprofessional, and the least Embarrasing in front of the World's Aerospace.
This Country is getting 'Sillier' every week, and I am Contemplating Emigrating if it doesn't improve = Im bored of it all day - everyday!!
The problem with this Government is they don't respect what our Services do, They are just numbers at the end of the day on a piece of paper?
Whatever we say the Government will always do what they want, and when they want!
I don't think it matter's how hard the Reds train & display, They are living on a potential 'Timebomb' = It doesn't bare thinking about.
Mr Blair & Mr Brown = Your time is nearly up?
Anyone who says otherwise = is on planet ZOB!
Fingers xx The Reds.
Regards.
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Heavy Metal
Who seriously thinks we'd replace the Hawks with Typhoons?! We're trying to SAVE money, not pi$$ it away. The cost of running a Hawk per hour is a fraction of that required to run
the Typhoon.
The tornado will never replace the Hawk in the Reds for the same reason, and I have seen the amount of work required to get 9 tonkas airborne ONCE in a year, never mind 3 times a day.
Those who suggest that we could man a display team made up from jets (and pilots?) from different sqns have obviously never spent time on front line flying sqns. We're working hard enough to generate enough jets for our own operational needs as it is.
the Typhoon.
The tornado will never replace the Hawk in the Reds for the same reason, and I have seen the amount of work required to get 9 tonkas airborne ONCE in a year, never mind 3 times a day.
Those who suggest that we could man a display team made up from jets (and pilots?) from different sqns have obviously never spent time on front line flying sqns. We're working hard enough to generate enough jets for our own operational needs as it is.
Notwithstanding the comments above, I’ve been there and done that wrt jets on the line, albeit an older jet (Bucc). What’s wrong with having some “Heavy Metal” doing the job. Having recently see the Blue Angels at first hand, they are impressive, albeit with “only” 6 jets. Nevertheless they do what it says on the tin. (Don’t start me on Fat Albert with RATO – very ‘kin impressive)
Also, the USAF use their own “Heavy Metal” with the F-16, again an excellent display. Not that I don’t like the Reds, I have seen them on many occasions and what they do with 9 jets is excellent, they are second to none as an aerobatic team.If money was no object, let’s try to better the current record of 22 aircraft in a formation loop, which was done way back in 1958 (PC incorrectness and spirit willing!)
Oh bu**er, back to planet Earth in 2007.
Mac
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BAe have been trying to sell Hawks out this way for ages. A couple of years ago the Red Arrows came, did their impressive stuff at Singapore, Jakarta, Langkawi and Brunei then went home. Brunei still hasn't bought any; Indonesia did. The Malaysians took some too, but they've crashed a few - I think they missed the word "advanced" in front of the word "trainer" when they signed the contract...
As a sales team for the BAe Hawk I think the Sparrers days are now over. As a recruiting attraction, well the RAF doesn't need recruits any more, does it?
As a sales team for the BAe Hawk I think the Sparrers days are now over. As a recruiting attraction, well the RAF doesn't need recruits any more, does it?
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Local TV and radio last night claimed that the future of the Reds was secure and they would stay at Scampton, and I for one am pleased. Whatever you might think or say about them, they are one of the few things in this country that we can all be proud of.
As Ken Scott says, the Army troop theie colour, the Navy run around with a big gun, so lets keep the RAF doing what it does best - flying aeroplanes! and I'm all for leaving that to the Red Arrows.
As for the hardware - I have seen both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds. Firstly, they are not a patch on the Arrows, and secondly - they are just too damned fast! And that means that in between passes, you have time to go to the loo, join the queue for an ice cream and get a burger, all before they're back for another pass!!
Perhaps, if some civil serpent wants to save some dosh, why not put BBMF at Scampton, with the Red Arrows and the Vulcan? Whats the point in keeping 2 stations open on a saturday and sunday during the display season, when it could all be done from Scampton? Makes perfect sence to me, which is why it will probably never happen!
Kind regards to all
TSM
As Ken Scott says, the Army troop theie colour, the Navy run around with a big gun, so lets keep the RAF doing what it does best - flying aeroplanes! and I'm all for leaving that to the Red Arrows.
As for the hardware - I have seen both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds. Firstly, they are not a patch on the Arrows, and secondly - they are just too damned fast! And that means that in between passes, you have time to go to the loo, join the queue for an ice cream and get a burger, all before they're back for another pass!!
Perhaps, if some civil serpent wants to save some dosh, why not put BBMF at Scampton, with the Red Arrows and the Vulcan? Whats the point in keeping 2 stations open on a saturday and sunday during the display season, when it could all be done from Scampton? Makes perfect sence to me, which is why it will probably never happen!
Kind regards to all
TSM
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Todays news tells us that the £2.4 billion estimate for the 2012 Olympics has now jumped to £8 billion, and that the Navy might not get the £6billion for their aircraft carriers because they just spent £4billion on destroyers.
Nice to see we live in a country with a proper sense of priority.
Nice to see we live in a country with a proper sense of priority.
Be fair PDC, at least the Olympics will give us 60 days of sheer enjoyment, and lots and lots of medals for the UK for our money.
The Royal Navy would make the carriers and destroyers last at least 20 years, where is the fun in that.
Maybe UK PLC can make the 2012 Olympics the most PC yet, with everybody who takes part finishing equal first and getting a gold medal, and no one finishing last.
Here's hoping the shooting teams miss the red targets and hit the brown(e) ones.
The Royal Navy would make the carriers and destroyers last at least 20 years, where is the fun in that.
Maybe UK PLC can make the 2012 Olympics the most PC yet, with everybody who takes part finishing equal first and getting a gold medal, and no one finishing last.
Here's hoping the shooting teams miss the red targets and hit the brown(e) ones.