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Apache and Royal Marines

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Apache and Royal Marines

Old 24th Jan 2007, 11:27
  #101 (permalink)  
GPMG
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Chatted to an other ex Bootneck yesterday and it was intereting to hear his views. I was saying what a hoofing effort it was, brave, good advert for the corps etc.

He turned round and said it was a bloody disgrace and a complete f**k up. He went on to ask what the hell was a Captain and an RSM doing risking everything at the front line on a dangerous mission like that, Colonel H syndrome he called it. Why was the initial attack so badly planned, was their any recce of the fort before hand?
He believed that it was a case of trying to cover up a very poor effort in the first place.

I can see his point to an extent, did an RSM and a Captain have to do what they did? Were there no individual fireteams available who have the knowledge and experience of working together and who would have been better suited to pulling this off? Why was the initial assualt sent into retreat?
 
Old 24th Jan 2007, 11:42
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting point of view, but it doesn't take away from the bravery displayed.
If you look too closely at most displays of heroism, you will probably find a planning [email protected] somewhere.
Almost by definition, heroism is above and beyond the call of duty, so if someone has to display it, something has probably gone wrong somewhere, I think......
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 12:07
  #103 (permalink)  
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The guy wasnt questioning the bravery, but he was questioning the reasoning behind who went and how it came to be that we ended up in that situation.
 
Old 24th Jan 2007, 12:25
  #104 (permalink)  
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how it came to be that we ended up in that situation
I'm guessing that the lack of numbers in the BG and the lack of SH means that the action was started with few if any additional and immediately deployable assets in reserve should things get sticky. They got very sticky, and they had to make do with what they had on the ground. They also knew that with Ford incapacitated they had little or no time to wait.

Armchair 20/20 is great in these situations of course.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 13:38
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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At last - someone is recognising that yes it was an incredible act of individual bravery but you just have to stop and think for a moment. We are led to believe that we are short of Apaches and AH aircrew, and also that an RSM/young officer were strapping themselves to the outside of the cockpit.
Just imagine the complete and utter fallout if (and if surprise was on their side, the laws of probability weren't) heaven forbid we had lost 2 Apache, plus crews and also the RSM - some of whom may have ended in orange boiler suits (I know not TB style, but you catch my drift) or being dragged through the streets of Gamisir Mogadishu style. And what if the subsequent recovery mission to these 'downed' AH crews had also lost lives as fighting patrol had to fight there way in and out back across the river.
I shudder at what could have been and although I do not question for one moment the bravery and these amazing flying skills and I would never pass judgement on anyones cockpit in the heat of battle.
But - lets learn from this episode. Is it really the way that UK plc wants to be doing business? Is this really the way that UK forces are rescued when things go wrong - if it is, then God help us as I think this particular AH JPR tactic back into the field of fire has just lost all of its nine lives.
Fundamentally, 'Tom' made a judgement call at that moment in time that both Senior Officers and the Media have provided positive spin. However, if it had gone wrong would 'Tom' have been supported or would his judgement or perceived 'wreckless' behaviour been all over the press.
I have said this again and again - this isn't about 'Tom' or the RSM or any of the operators - it is all about them being forced into that situation because there were no other options availible to him or those back in his HQ. He was forced to take those massive risks because of the lack of a suitable JPR/Immediate Combat Recovery plan, due mainly to lack of rotary wing assets. If , as reported, the CH47s were on another job (how many are out there!?!), then there are obviously too many tasks for the resources in theatre.
I reiterate, the huge risk that the Teenie Weenies and Royal Marines taken that day was a result as someone much further up the chain taking the whole lack of rotary support 'on risk' in the full knowledge that something like this was going to happen. If for one moment that the hierarchy believed that Afghanistan was not going to have a JPR scenario and the risk was acceptable needs to re-vist his/her risk register/matrix.
Armchair 20/20 is exactly what we want Artist, exactly what we want otherwise you can bet someone elses life that some Staff planner will pull this procedure out of the hat again and dare I say become a norm.
We need to acknowledge the individual acts of bravery (and I agree there is such a fine line) but we must identify, learnand apply every lesson that comes out of it other wise one day we will wake up to some horrendous/extremely sad news from theatre.

Last edited by MaroonMan4; 24th Jan 2007 at 14:57.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 17:18
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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He went on to ask what the hell was a Captain and an RSM doing risking everything at the front line on a dangerous mission like that,


Errrrrr....uhhhhhh.....Leading.....perhaps?
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 20:26
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Now look chaps, I know some of you are in the RAF, but even a cursory glance at the medja surrounding this event would show that the Royals assaulted on the ground, rather than from the air, in their BVS-10 Vikings. It's likely that the Royals' reserve was similarly mounted and close by for reinforcement. Very possibly, by the time anything was discovered to be amiss, troops had withdrawn and the fastest way to effect a quick target recce and extraction was from the air - on a opportunity basis and with some element of surprise.

Chances are the whole thing was put together at a HQ where combat troops hadn't got back to yet or were guarding and it was first come first served.

We expect our officers and senior WOs to lead by example in the Army and RM and that's what happened here. Or would you prefer the senior blokes sent in 4 sprogs?

How very armchair of you!

Yes, it could have been a horrendous mess, but it wasn't. Sometimes it's Colonel H and sometimes it's Pte Beharry, but frankly second guessing it from the never-accurate media dishonours these chaps' achievements and for my money, when an officer (or RSM) becomes too valuable to risk, he's no longer an officer. And the same goes for Apaches.

MaroonMan hits the nail on the head with his views on the risk taken up the chain by this most mendacious of governments (cf. Des Browne's performance in the commons of late). Let's save our ire for them and people like GPMG's booty friend who's probably desperately jealous!
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 00:20
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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As Teddy Roosevelt once opined about those that criticize bold action in combat.....

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 11:20
  #109 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin View Post
Let's save our ire for them and people like GPMG's booty friend who's probably desperately jealous!
Both myself and my mate are ex bootnecks, both have the utmost respect for what those guys did, however you have to question the way these events came to pass, planning, equipment resources etc.

If you can't understand the original question try and get a friend to explain it to you, you seem to be a special needs case.
 
Old 25th Jan 2007, 11:44
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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SASLess,

PM Please.
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 18:39
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GPMG View Post
If you can't understand the original question try and get a friend to explain it to you, you seem to be a special needs case.
Hmm reasoned debate indeed. Mind you, I'm not the so-called 'ex-booty' with the 'mate' who has this view, to which he's entitled if he actually exists. Sounds a bit like the 'mate' who's needs some advice from the clap doctor to me - you know the one that you're just asking on behalf of?

You sound like a walt to me gimpy. And your 'mate'.
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 21:16
  #112 (permalink)  
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Take your head for a shit cockrobin, and it is pronounced G P M G not gimpy, if you can't be bothered to say it then don't bother to carry it.
Nice try with the walt accusation but totally incorrect the same ref my oppo who is very real.

Now bugger off and stop being a keyboard hero, probably as close as you would ever get.
 
Old 25th Jan 2007, 23:40
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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GPMG,

CockRobin floats in and out of this means every now and then and ALWAYS spouts tosh which most folks grin at and treat as just the dribblings of one who maybe used to have faculties ..........so dont take the bait fella
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 00:01
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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at the end of the day the 4 guys who strapped themselves to the apaches deserve to be honoured and respected no mater what their rank or appointment. The idiots who sent them into this mess under resourced and out on a limb personally imho need to become unemployed very rapidally and thease guys are not in Afghanistan or even in uniform (though some of their uniformed yes men should be there as well)
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 00:13
  #115 (permalink)  
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I happen to agree with the gist of Christopher's main post. There wasn't time for too much planning, thinking, re-thinking, re-planning etc. This was an opportunistic plan put together at great speed by those in a position to do it and act on it. Not the motto of the RM or the RE but famous nevertheless and in this instance I believe appropriate, it was a case of "Who Dares Wins".
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 12:31
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks parabellum for actually reading my post. As for the gimp and ABIW (I wondered when you'd climb out of your hole), I think from now on I'll just spell both your names as R.E.M.F.

...

"My oppo who is very real"

quite. You'll be telling me to "be afwaid...be vewy afwaid" next will you?

Bought any "spare" medals from silvermans recently have you gimp?
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 13:08
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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"My oppo who is very real"
quite. You'll be telling me to "be afwaid...be vewy afwaid" next will you?
Bought any "spare" medals from silvermans recently have you gimp?
CR you are a t**t, the guys you are slagging off are real, I just wonder who the real Walter is?
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 14:43
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Christopher,
Please do not lead this thread into the gutter. I know exactly who you are, we have worked together before and although you do come across a tad bitter in that you were forced out of the cockpit against your will at an early point in your flying career in the 'interests of the Service' to pursue a Staff career. I would suggest that if you want to continue this little spat -and you get a kick out of it - then continue it by PMs, as although I can go off thread at times, you most certainly have the ability to quickly degenerate what up until now has been an open and informed discussion in and around the related subjects of bravery,risk taking, resources, JPR etc etc.
Please don't mud sling or bitch slap here - it really isn't you , doesn't do you any favours and I know that you mean well at heart and are vry professional in what you do now.
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Old 27th Jan 2007, 16:18
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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One of the young guys story...

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2...y9222484t0.asp
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Old 27th Jan 2007, 16:35
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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“They asked for volunteers and everyone put their hands up,” he said.
A grandson asked of his grandfather who was in "E" Company of "Band of Brothers" fame...."Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?"

Granda's reply was...."No Son....but I was surrounded by Heroes."

Seems to apply to those Marines and Aircrew!
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