Night trg w/o lights
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You don't even have to NOTAM your route necessarily. AD sqns regularly train lights out at all levels. All legal as long as they are under an ADIS from an appropriate CRC. Doesn't have to be in segregated airspace either. Happens all the time in Wales and Northumberland.
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Jno
Well said,
But when have you ever seen a NOTAM with regard to night lights-out flying where the upper limit is 250 ft agl?
TheWizard
Of course you should not discuss military tactics in a public environment but don't you think that military training, in peacetime public airspace, that creates a risk to flight safety should not be discussed openly?
The Ugly Fend Off
You are right, it is very sensible to train lights-out under the control/monitor of a CRC or other radar unit, but how is the civilian pilot transiting through the area going to know what is going on, or who to contact for co-ordination, if it has not been NOTAM'd?
Well said,
But when have you ever seen a NOTAM with regard to night lights-out flying where the upper limit is 250 ft agl?
TheWizard
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum
The Ugly Fend Off
You are right, it is very sensible to train lights-out under the control/monitor of a CRC or other radar unit, but how is the civilian pilot transiting through the area going to know what is going on, or who to contact for co-ordination, if it has not been NOTAM'd?
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but don't you think that military in peacetime public airspace, that creates a risk to flight safety should not be discussed openly?
Has there been any military training accidents in recent years at night due to using the correct procedures? Not that I am aware of.
Open discussion is fine, but when it involves snippets of correct information and plenty of 'assumptions' then usually the wrong conclusions are drawn. As I said, it is not a clever idea to discuss current tactics and associated procedures on a worldwide public forum. If those reading this thread are current Mil aviators then they will be well aware of the facts. If those others that are reading this are 'concerned' with military activity, remember, as has been stated elsewhere - there are rules and regs in place to allow proper training to take place in notified areas. We don't just blunder into any old airspace willy nilly, unlike some civilian pilots it has to be said
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I think you are absolutrely correct. Flying around in the dark without displaying any Nav or Anti-col lights is foolhardy and dangerous....and a flight safety hazard......
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and before anyone says 'but this is not ops', how else do crews train without being shot at?
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Done plenty shippers.....and a lot of it on Goggs.....I just said that its dangerous....like flying on Goggs is dangerous...and scary...and flying in formation at night is even scarier...
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Flight Safety hazard? Next you will be telling us that every time you get airborne in a helicopter it is a flight safety hazard? (and I don't mean you personally
)
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SkidKid
The CRC involved in the exercise will ensure that all ATC units in the affected airspace are informed of the activity. In this way the civilians in the area should be made aware. If this fails to get the civilians out of the way, so to speak, then the formations with the lights out will be hgt capped or if it gets too busy will immediately go lights on. There has been recent CAA guidlines released concerning this very issue.
The CRC involved in the exercise will ensure that all ATC units in the affected airspace are informed of the activity. In this way the civilians in the area should be made aware. If this fails to get the civilians out of the way, so to speak, then the formations with the lights out will be hgt capped or if it gets too busy will immediately go lights on. There has been recent CAA guidlines released concerning this very issue.
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TheWizard
Nobody has said that anyone has or should "blunder into any old airspace willy nilly". Accidental incursions do occur from time to time, of course, but these happen to military and civilian pilots alike.
The topic being discussed is whether a pilot, civilian or military, who is engaged on a category A or B flight at night in open airspace should make a conscious decision to fly into the NOTAM'd area of a lights-out training flight.
You do give the impression that, because you have NOTAM'd the activity, you have priority over everyone else. You don't - a category A or B flight takes priority over your training flight.
When a civilian police/SAR pilot goes flying he does have the "correct knowledge" of "the current rules" but there is a very obvious flight safety risk if he cannot see another aircraft in the same part of the sky.
vecvechookattack
It is not "foolhardy and dangerous" so long as the correct procedures are in place for co-ordination between the aircraft involved. There is certainly a potential flight safety hazard if they aren't.
One possible procedure would be for the lights-out aircraft to monitor a radio frequency so that another aircraft can call and co-ordinate. That frequency must have been NOTAM'd so that the other aircraft is aware of it and it must be VHF. Most civilian aircraft do not carry UHF.
The Ugly Fend Off
It is good to see that you AD guys have some sensible procedures in force for the upper levels. That is not the case, though, at low level where radio and radar cover from CRC or ATC is limited.
Nobody has said that anyone has or should "blunder into any old airspace willy nilly". Accidental incursions do occur from time to time, of course, but these happen to military and civilian pilots alike.
The topic being discussed is whether a pilot, civilian or military, who is engaged on a category A or B flight at night in open airspace should make a conscious decision to fly into the NOTAM'd area of a lights-out training flight.
You do give the impression that, because you have NOTAM'd the activity, you have priority over everyone else. You don't - a category A or B flight takes priority over your training flight.
When a civilian police/SAR pilot goes flying he does have the "correct knowledge" of "the current rules" but there is a very obvious flight safety risk if he cannot see another aircraft in the same part of the sky.
vecvechookattack
It is not "foolhardy and dangerous" so long as the correct procedures are in place for co-ordination between the aircraft involved. There is certainly a potential flight safety hazard if they aren't.
One possible procedure would be for the lights-out aircraft to monitor a radio frequency so that another aircraft can call and co-ordinate. That frequency must have been NOTAM'd so that the other aircraft is aware of it and it must be VHF. Most civilian aircraft do not carry UHF.
The Ugly Fend Off
It is good to see that you AD guys have some sensible procedures in force for the upper levels. That is not the case, though, at low level where radio and radar cover from CRC or ATC is limited.
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The topic being discussed is whether a pilot, civilian or military, who is engaged on a category A or B flight at night in open airspace should make a conscious decision to fly into the NOTAM'd area of a lights-out training flight.
Sky
Theory.
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[quote=Skidkid;3081038]TheWizard
vecvechookattack
It is not "foolhardy and dangerous" so long as the correct procedures are in place for co-ordination between the aircraft involved. There is certainly a potential flight safety hazard if they aren't.
Fella,
I have over 200 Hours of NVG flying,.....whazzing along at 100'.....screaming over the top of peoples houses at night....waking the children, disturbing the animals.....just missing that set of wires which are not on the chart.....Anyone who thinks that flying at extreme low level at night without any lights on is NOT dangerous....then they are complete fools and won't get a ride in my aircraft
vecvechookattack
It is not "foolhardy and dangerous" so long as the correct procedures are in place for co-ordination between the aircraft involved. There is certainly a potential flight safety hazard if they aren't.
Fella,
I have over 200 Hours of NVG flying,.....whazzing along at 100'.....screaming over the top of peoples houses at night....waking the children, disturbing the animals.....just missing that set of wires which are not on the chart.....Anyone who thinks that flying at extreme low level at night without any lights on is NOT dangerous....then they are complete fools and won't get a ride in my aircraft
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vecvechookattack
Great comment,
My 250 hrs on the goggles was many years ago but it sounds just the same as I remember, except that we kept the nav lights on then.
The good thing is that good procedures have kept us both safe so far.
Fly safely
Great comment,
My 250 hrs on the goggles was many years ago but it sounds just the same as I remember, except that we kept the nav lights on then.
The good thing is that good procedures have kept us both safe so far.
Fly safely
