Night trg w/o lights
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360BakTrak
True, but what if the police/SAR aircraft is approaching the lights-out aircraft from the rear? Who would be held to blame should a collision or airprox occur?
H Peacock
There is nothing in aviation law that prevents you from displaying nav lights by day. It is a very sensible flight safety precaution, particularly in dull weather conditions. It also stops you forgetting to switch them back on at dusk.
There are, however, some cheapskate operators that encourage their crews not to use them in order to save light bulbs.
True, but what if the police/SAR aircraft is approaching the lights-out aircraft from the rear? Who would be held to blame should a collision or airprox occur?
H Peacock
There is nothing in aviation law that prevents you from displaying nav lights by day. It is a very sensible flight safety precaution, particularly in dull weather conditions. It also stops you forgetting to switch them back on at dusk.
There are, however, some cheapskate operators that encourage their crews not to use them in order to save light bulbs.
It's certainly a tricky one......I would suppose the one with the better lawyer!
I would suspect until something serious happens, nothing will get down about avoiding such a scenario.
I would suspect until something serious happens, nothing will get down about avoiding such a scenario.
Interesting thread, couple of thoughts;
Hopefully the lights out aircraft would be squawking so the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS if not visual.
Also, if operating in an area of regular military helo activity, a call to the ATC unit working the mil traffic (if known) would help, e.g. LFA10 / Wattisham.
LXGB
Hopefully the lights out aircraft would be squawking so the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS if not visual.
Also, if operating in an area of regular military helo activity, a call to the ATC unit working the mil traffic (if known) would help, e.g. LFA10 / Wattisham.
LXGB
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And you can operate lights out if NOTAMd. Ergo, you should know roughly where the no lights ac is (as the route and timings are in the NOTAM). Plus it is likely that a civvy would be talking to ATC - especially the polizei as they'll want any traffic info (you would hope). I know our cousins at Mildenhall often go cross-country sans lights and they're always NOTAMd - I know my eyes were always out on stalks and I'd be talking to ATC if I was in their vicinity.
So... If the aircraft with lights hit the ac without lights from behind, the former is at fault. Providing he/she had read the NOTAMs. And if they didn't read them, samey same.
So... If the aircraft with lights hit the ac without lights from behind, the former is at fault. Providing he/she had read the NOTAMs. And if they didn't read them, samey same.
Close study of NOTAMs certainly happens at a certain Police/AA unit somewhere between Lyneham and Salisbury Plain. That unit also possesses mapping showing standard military routes/corridors. I suspect that if I was behind a lights-out a/c on my occasional shifts there, then:
a. I probably wouldn't have much, if any, overtake speed on most military helis.
b. I would probably be at least 300 feet higher than that heli, and
c. The light from my anti-colls (I'd even consider white strobes if near a NOTAM'd route, task permitting) would still be evident to him/her even though I'm in his/her high 6.
All of which makes it an acceptable risk to my crew and me in our public service aircraft, so I'm happy to continue to share the same airspace. Thanks for your concern.
a. I probably wouldn't have much, if any, overtake speed on most military helis.
b. I would probably be at least 300 feet higher than that heli, and
c. The light from my anti-colls (I'd even consider white strobes if near a NOTAM'd route, task permitting) would still be evident to him/her even though I'm in his/her high 6.
All of which makes it an acceptable risk to my crew and me in our public service aircraft, so I'm happy to continue to share the same airspace. Thanks for your concern.
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Professional Student
If you are trying to avoid a no-lights aircraft at night, it is no use knowing where its rough position is. You need to know where it actually is.
Similarly, a NOTAM will give you the approximate position but not the actual position. It assumes also, that the crew are always on time at their turning points which we all know is not always the case.
LXGB
Not all police aircraft are fitted with TCAS. Personally, I think it should be mandatory but that's another topic. TCAS and transponders do fail from time to time as well.
Thud_and_Blunder
Your points are all very sensible and professional but you may be quicker than the other aircraft, you just don't know. Your trust in the lookout from the other aircraft is admirable. Maybe, I am not so trusting.
you should know roughly where the no lights ac is
as the route and timings are in the NOTAM
LXGB
the Police helo would at least have a chance of picking him up on TCAS
Thud_and_Blunder
Your points are all very sensible and professional but you may be quicker than the other aircraft, you just don't know. Your trust in the lookout from the other aircraft is admirable. Maybe, I am not so trusting.
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Could someone explain the reasons for lights-out flying at night in a peacetime training environment. My military service was many years ago and I am not up to date with modern tactics.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton.
During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton.
During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on.
Avoid imitations
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When military heli pilots are using NVGs, the nav lights from other aircraft appear very much brighter to them than when relying merely on the naked eye.
Some aircraft do have a problem with reflected light from nav lights entering the goggles, reducing their effectiveness.
There is nothing to stop a pilot using nav lights by day if he feels it appropriate to use them but there is certainly nothing to mandate that they must be used by day. However, helicopters shall have an anti-coll light on at all times (I think it must still be coloured red only for civilian aircraft) when the rotors are turning.
Some aircraft do have a problem with reflected light from nav lights entering the goggles, reducing their effectiveness.
There is nothing to stop a pilot using nav lights by day if he feels it appropriate to use them but there is certainly nothing to mandate that they must be used by day. However, helicopters shall have an anti-coll light on at all times (I think it must still be coloured red only for civilian aircraft) when the rotors are turning.
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Could someone explain the reasons for lights-out flying at night in a peacetime training environment. My military service was many years ago and I am not up to date with modern tactics.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton.
During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on.
I assume that it must be connected with NVG flying and I can well understand that the nav lights could dazzle another crew when flying in formation. What I don't understand is why it is necessary to fly lights-out as a singleton.
During my military time, I flew many hours at night on goggles but always with nav lights on. Although a strobe or ant-coll could be distracting, I never found any problem with having the nav lights turned on.
I agree that during transit there is little value from going lights out, unless the weather conditions decree otherwise. I really don't understand why our American cousins do so often in transit given the poor training value.
For helicopters, even as a singleton, strobes (and occasionally nav lights) are a great distraction close to the ground ie ground cushion work and approaches/departures etc and so are often switched off, then switched back on for the later transit.
Professional Student
Quote:
you should know roughly where the no lights ac is
If you are trying to avoid a no-lights aircraft at night, it is no use knowing where its rough position is. You need to know where it actually is.
Quote:
as the route and timings are in the NOTAM
Similarly, a NOTAM will give you the approximate position but not the actual position. It assumes also, that the crew are always on time at their turning points which we all know is not always the case.
Quote:
you should know roughly where the no lights ac is
If you are trying to avoid a no-lights aircraft at night, it is no use knowing where its rough position is. You need to know where it actually is.
Quote:
as the route and timings are in the NOTAM
Similarly, a NOTAM will give you the approximate position but not the actual position. It assumes also, that the crew are always on time at their turning points which we all know is not always the case.
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No lights training can be a requirement for several reasons and not just NVG.
The area or route is NOTAM'd for the purpose of safety. Military NOTAMs make the route/area a mandatory avoid for other military users however for civilians it can merely be a warning issued by Airspace Utilisation Section at CAA. Should a civilian be in conflict with a no lights aircraft operating within the limits of a NOTAM however, I would expect the pilot may be deemed to be hazarding his aircraft and passengers. I do however, sit to be corrected,
HEDP
The area or route is NOTAM'd for the purpose of safety. Military NOTAMs make the route/area a mandatory avoid for other military users however for civilians it can merely be a warning issued by Airspace Utilisation Section at CAA. Should a civilian be in conflict with a no lights aircraft operating within the limits of a NOTAM however, I would expect the pilot may be deemed to be hazarding his aircraft and passengers. I do however, sit to be corrected,
HEDP
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ProfessionalStudent
Thanks, and things don't seem to have changed too much from my day. I well appreciate, from my previous experience, that lights can cause a distraction whilst operating on NVG in the weeds and in the cushion.
We seem to agree about the transit which still raises the question as to why it is necessary for some to travel lights-out on a night transit. Perhaps, SRG and DASC should be taking a closer look at this.
With regard to calling ATC, this is obviously very sensible. Thud_and_Blunder has the advantage of being able to speak to Lyneham Radar and Salisbury Ops but this is not necessarily the case in other parts of the country.
There are many areas where there is no ATC available at low level, particulary after 5pm. Even if you can raise someone, you are almost certainly going to be below radar cover.
Thanks, and things don't seem to have changed too much from my day. I well appreciate, from my previous experience, that lights can cause a distraction whilst operating on NVG in the weeds and in the cushion.
We seem to agree about the transit which still raises the question as to why it is necessary for some to travel lights-out on a night transit. Perhaps, SRG and DASC should be taking a closer look at this.
With regard to calling ATC, this is obviously very sensible. Thud_and_Blunder has the advantage of being able to speak to Lyneham Radar and Salisbury Ops but this is not necessarily the case in other parts of the country.
There are many areas where there is no ATC available at low level, particulary after 5pm. Even if you can raise someone, you are almost certainly going to be below radar cover.
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HEDP
Yes, but you seem to have missed some of the points raised by the earlier posts.
Put yourself in the position of a police or SAR pilot who is on a category A or B task. He has priority over all training flights, even if that training flight has been NOTAM'd. He wishes to fly as fast as possible, in the most direct line as possible, to the scene of his task. You would expect nothing less if you were bobbing up and down in your dinghy in a cold, rough sea.
His proposed track takes him through the NOTAM'd route of a military no-lights training aircraft. If the route is close to an active airfield it is obviously sensible to call ATC for assistance. Even then, a radar service may not be available at low level.
If there is no ATC available, what does he do? Does he route around the NOTAM'd area adding extra time to his transit and possibly risking the life of his casualty, or does he continue in the hope that the lights-out aircraft can see him?
I don't know what the answer is; perhaps those in higher places should be providing one.
Yes, but you seem to have missed some of the points raised by the earlier posts.
Put yourself in the position of a police or SAR pilot who is on a category A or B task. He has priority over all training flights, even if that training flight has been NOTAM'd. He wishes to fly as fast as possible, in the most direct line as possible, to the scene of his task. You would expect nothing less if you were bobbing up and down in your dinghy in a cold, rough sea.
His proposed track takes him through the NOTAM'd route of a military no-lights training aircraft. If the route is close to an active airfield it is obviously sensible to call ATC for assistance. Even then, a radar service may not be available at low level.
If there is no ATC available, what does he do? Does he route around the NOTAM'd area adding extra time to his transit and possibly risking the life of his casualty, or does he continue in the hope that the lights-out aircraft can see him?
I don't know what the answer is; perhaps those in higher places should be providing one.
I assume he or she would be 'dark strobeing' so that others on goggs could see him. Bit unusual to see one without nav lights , but then again if the crew is comming back from an excercise area or have recently returned from sandy places they might just have forgotten to switch 'em back on again.
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In the case of my fleet, the crew are using only their right eye aided with FLIR and the left eye is unaided. If we were to train with lights all the time the crew get used to using the lights of the other aircraft in formation with their left eye. As soon as they go on ops with no lights available to the left eye they stand a very good chance of becoming situationaly unaware and in a dangerous situation. Therefore; it is critical that they train with no lights from the outset.
I would put it that if the police crew were unable to talk to a no lights crew by any means then the situation would merit a serious risk assessment balancing the risk versus the aims of the police sortie. If lives are at stake then it may be worth it, otherwise maybe not.
HEDP
I would put it that if the police crew were unable to talk to a no lights crew by any means then the situation would merit a serious risk assessment balancing the risk versus the aims of the police sortie. If lives are at stake then it may be worth it, otherwise maybe not.
HEDP
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Fly above it. Cloud base dependant of course but the NOTAM would surely have a transit height which would be no more than 250ft agl.
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Perhaps if any of the CHSU pilots are lurking they can answer how they operate out of Benson every night in LFA 1C & B surrounded by any number of Merlins and Pumas 'lights out' without any problem!
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not. Not wanting to sound patronising in any way, but unecessary risks are not a daily pursuit of helicopter crews.
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not. Not wanting to sound patronising in any way, but unecessary risks are not a daily pursuit of helicopter crews.
Procedures and tactics have changed over the years and perhaps in the interest of comsec it is best not to discuss them on a public forum, speculation or not.