Barnacles found on Tristar C2?
The aircraft crossed the threshold at the correct speed but it was a 'heavy' landing and the aircraft ballooned.(ie small not big bounce) The Tristar Aircrew Manual states
' To recover, hold or re-establish the landing attitude and allow the aircraft to sink back on to the runway. Apply power if necessary to control the rate of speed decay. Do not push hard forward on the control column. If a large bounce occurs, cary out a go-around.'
Going around after a heavy landing has proved very unwise in a lot of incidents (Vulcan at Malta, Tristar autoland at BZZ)
No one would have thanked the operating pilot for getting airborne again so that jonny bloody foreigner could have a go with his big catapult and the crew were unaware of the tail scrape until ATC mentioned that sparks had been seen during the landing run.
I'm sure that the genuinely experienced ME pilots amongst us can cast their minds back to a less than perfect landing and wonder what might have occured if they hadn't got away with it!
PS My mum thinks I'm good looking
' To recover, hold or re-establish the landing attitude and allow the aircraft to sink back on to the runway. Apply power if necessary to control the rate of speed decay. Do not push hard forward on the control column. If a large bounce occurs, cary out a go-around.'
Going around after a heavy landing has proved very unwise in a lot of incidents (Vulcan at Malta, Tristar autoland at BZZ)
No one would have thanked the operating pilot for getting airborne again so that jonny bloody foreigner could have a go with his big catapult and the crew were unaware of the tail scrape until ATC mentioned that sparks had been seen during the landing run.
I'm sure that the genuinely experienced ME pilots amongst us can cast their minds back to a less than perfect landing and wonder what might have occured if they hadn't got away with it!
PS My mum thinks I'm good looking
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Bernie
Meaningful debate?
When do you intend to start?
Meaningful debate?
is crashing now an acceptable standard of airmanship? Mr ACS appears to think so. Is this attitude endemic on the AT fleet?
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My ecclesiastical friend, please find below, for your information the definition for which you are striving.
de·bate (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
v.tr.
1. To deliberate on; consider.
2. To dispute or argue about.
3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
n.
1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
I have attempted to start the said debate by proffering the proposition. Your attempted rejection by way of counter debate suggests lack of understanding and/or education, Sir. Either way an attempt to answer the original questions would be most appreciated. Unless of course the answers are too unpalatable?!
Look after number one, no body else will.
Fly Safe
B
PS. Come on Speccy, surely landing an airliner on its tail amounts at the very least to gross mishandling?
de·bate (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
v.tr.
1. To deliberate on; consider.
2. To dispute or argue about.
3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
n.
1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
I have attempted to start the said debate by proffering the proposition. Your attempted rejection by way of counter debate suggests lack of understanding and/or education, Sir. Either way an attempt to answer the original questions would be most appreciated. Unless of course the answers are too unpalatable?!
Look after number one, no body else will.
Fly Safe
B
PS. Come on Speccy, surely landing an airliner on its tail amounts at the very least to gross mishandling?
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To recover, hold or re-establish the landing attitude and allow the aircraft to sink back on to the runway. Apply power if necessary to control the rate of speed decay. Do not push hard forward on the control column. If a large bounce occurs, cary out a go-around.'
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Quite BBD. Gross mishandling at the very least I should think. Wonder what follow up action is being/has been taken? BTW, what were the rest of the crew doing whilst the handling pilot was doing his best to reverse-tent-peg the airliner? Isn't it this sort of thing CRM is meant to prevent? For those of you who need it spelling out, this is my attempt to provoke debate.
Look after number one, nobody else will
Fly Safe
B
Look after number one, nobody else will
Fly Safe
B
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"gross mishandling at the very least I should think"
Were you there? Much Tristar, or indeed multi engine experience?
"Wonder what follow up action is being/has been taken?"
Looking for a witch-hunt? If so, why?
What's the problem, bullied by a multi-engine pilot at school?
What debate do you want to start? Is it: should we hang a bloke on the strength of an internet message board and what you have heard/surmise? Or is it: Are Tristar crews all rubbish?
How about you wait for the results of follow up action (if any)?
Were you there? Much Tristar, or indeed multi engine experience?
"Wonder what follow up action is being/has been taken?"
Looking for a witch-hunt? If so, why?
What's the problem, bullied by a multi-engine pilot at school?
What debate do you want to start? Is it: should we hang a bloke on the strength of an internet message board and what you have heard/surmise? Or is it: Are Tristar crews all rubbish?
How about you wait for the results of follow up action (if any)?
Free Man, Not a Number
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Hurrah - we at least have one aircraft that can be flown, and a crew onboard to fly it - abeit maybe not quite as the maker intended.
I know you (we) all strive for perfection (who doesn't) but it's the odd clanger that keeps the edge.
No hurt, no foul. Problem?
I know you (we) all strive for perfection (who doesn't) but it's the odd clanger that keeps the edge.
No hurt, no foul. Problem?
Bernie old chap there's a big difference between landing an aircraft on its tail(not what happened in this case and bloody difficult to do anyway) and scraping the tail on the landing run because the nose is too high. The former causes an accident the latter gives the back end a scrape.
The old tin triangle used to have a little skid on the tail attached to 2 red lights on the coaming, when they came on it was considered prudent to lower the nose and start braking with the wheels rather than the wings!
May I suggest that if you have no experience of flying large aircraft you refrain from making inaccurate speculative statements. The usual post incident report investigations will clarify the sequence of events and will be published in the usual places.
The old tin triangle used to have a little skid on the tail attached to 2 red lights on the coaming, when they came on it was considered prudent to lower the nose and start braking with the wheels rather than the wings!
May I suggest that if you have no experience of flying large aircraft you refrain from making inaccurate speculative statements. The usual post incident report investigations will clarify the sequence of events and will be published in the usual places.
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Tristar driver not getting it right???????????????
As one of those civilian types on the browse and, a 1011 fan (never driven one unfortunately). I notice you military johnnies, obviously from the action man department, are very quickto hang us freight dogs mil or civ. I see no body has thought of the good old 'Wind shear' which just might have contributed to the situation. Before you hang a guy you might get the facts to criticise from.
I see a WAFU thinks you light blues provide a lot of amusement to the other services, pulling each other apart. As I read it, the FJ jocks still thinkthey are God's gift to the world - boys you wouldn't get many hours in if it weren't for the heavies with fuel for you. Think about your next life (the dreaded civilian world, all that SLF). You need them more than they need you - think about it, especially BTFF - what did they do for a village idiot when you joined up? At best took the recruiter who signed you on.
I see a WAFU thinks you light blues provide a lot of amusement to the other services, pulling each other apart. As I read it, the FJ jocks still thinkthey are God's gift to the world - boys you wouldn't get many hours in if it weren't for the heavies with fuel for you. Think about your next life (the dreaded civilian world, all that SLF). You need them more than they need you - think about it, especially BTFF - what did they do for a village idiot when you joined up? At best took the recruiter who signed you on.
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Bernie - please don't haul me into your ill-informed version of events. My question was somewhat rhetorical but does not infer "gross mishandling" or trying to "reverse tent peg" the aircraft (whatever that is!).
Unlike you, I do have (quite a bit of) Tri* time so am as eager as everyone else to see the facts when they are published. I'm sure it's been a salutory lesson to those on the Sqn.
BTFF....you are still noticeable by your absence...perhaps you mysteriously diverted into the deep south on the trail back and are now the gimp for the one-horse town. Judicious bootfull (actually just the tiniest squeeze) of rudder as you're trying to make contact can be a real b!tch. MSAC.
Unlike you, I do have (quite a bit of) Tri* time so am as eager as everyone else to see the facts when they are published. I'm sure it's been a salutory lesson to those on the Sqn.
BTFF....you are still noticeable by your absence...perhaps you mysteriously diverted into the deep south on the trail back and are now the gimp for the one-horse town. Judicious bootfull (actually just the tiniest squeeze) of rudder as you're trying to make contact can be a real b!tch. MSAC.
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Speccy and BBD, I despair! 
Surely the tail skid warning was for over zealous pitch on take-off and never intended (or in the manufacturers wildest dreams thought of) as a landing warning?! A 90% exceedence of an aircraft limitation (19 degrees pitch rather than 10, thanks speccy) not gross mishandling, you *** boys really have let yourselves go. Airmanship is not type specific guys, anyone can see this for what it was - a grossly mishandled approach.
Look after number one, no one else will.
Fly Safe (even you *** boys)
B
Surely the tail skid warning was for over zealous pitch on take-off and never intended (or in the manufacturers wildest dreams thought of) as a landing warning?! A 90% exceedence of an aircraft limitation (19 degrees pitch rather than 10, thanks speccy) not gross mishandling, you *** boys really have let yourselves go. Airmanship is not type specific guys, anyone can see this for what it was - a grossly mishandled approach.Look after number one, no one else will.
Fly Safe (even you *** boys)
B
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And that concludes the findings of the Royal Air Force Board of Inquiry.....
It must have been pretty scary for you Bernie, seeing as you were obviously sat on the Tri* flight deck when the incident happened.....
It must have been pretty scary for you Bernie, seeing as you were obviously sat on the Tri* flight deck when the incident happened.....
Bernie you really are a prat, I suspect your knowledge of aviation is limited to what you've read in comics in W H Smiths!
My reference to tail skid warning lights on the Vulcan referred to the need for a pilot warning device in an aircraft which routinely held the nose up until 80kts on landing. This aerodynamic braking technique was very effective on a delta wing aircraft but pilots had to be careful when their tail was only a few inches above the ground!
Indeed I recall seeing the lights illuminate and then disappear very quickly on one particular landing at Goose Bay. Needless to say the ground crew used a bit of 'no more nails' to stick the tail skid back on and we spent the rest of the afternoon bombing frozen lakes above the tree line!
To be honest Bernie I think you'd be better off on a Wanabees website, I suspect you were probably chopped from pilot training at sometime in your past and have some sort of chip on your shoulder? Anyway you're providing much amusement amongst us older and wiser chaps, perhaps you should try therapy?
My reference to tail skid warning lights on the Vulcan referred to the need for a pilot warning device in an aircraft which routinely held the nose up until 80kts on landing. This aerodynamic braking technique was very effective on a delta wing aircraft but pilots had to be careful when their tail was only a few inches above the ground!
Indeed I recall seeing the lights illuminate and then disappear very quickly on one particular landing at Goose Bay. Needless to say the ground crew used a bit of 'no more nails' to stick the tail skid back on and we spent the rest of the afternoon bombing frozen lakes above the tree line!
To be honest Bernie I think you'd be better off on a Wanabees website, I suspect you were probably chopped from pilot training at sometime in your past and have some sort of chip on your shoulder? Anyway you're providing much amusement amongst us older and wiser chaps, perhaps you should try therapy?
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So what you're saying speccy my dear chap, is that your average RAF *** pilot is so poor that the RAF *** fleet needs an additional tail strike warning mod? Some sense at last. Sounds like you guys need it!
Please see - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=263190
for a company who knows how to incentivise its pilots. Perhaps similar sentiments from your AOC might focus minds?
Thanks for not even trying to put to rest legitimate fears of falling standards in the AT world guys, guess you deserve what's coming! I'll be taking the bus next time!
Look after number one, nobody else will.
Fly Safe
B
Please see - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=263190
for a company who knows how to incentivise its pilots. Perhaps similar sentiments from your AOC might focus minds?
Thanks for not even trying to put to rest legitimate fears of falling standards in the AT world guys, guess you deserve what's coming! I'll be taking the bus next time!
Look after number one, nobody else will.
Fly Safe
B
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Hmmm
"Interests:
CAA ATPLs, Job seeking"
I wonder why you are job seeking Bernie...either screwed up in the past or waiting to screw up.
I happen to know quite a few people from the Tri's who are average RAF *** (BTW they are pretty **** good)
In my long and youthful career I have always found that the best way of helping people is to provide advice....
"Isn't it this sort of thing CRM is meant to prevent?...Thanks for not even trying to put to rest legitimate fears of falling standards in the AT world guys, guess you deserve what's coming! I'll be taking the bus next time!"
No advice there I think. I would be greatful to learn from your wisdom oh masterful one...if anybody out that happens to fly this smeghead anywhere please ensure the loadie serves him some of the captains special orange juice.
CAA ATPLs, Job seeking"
I wonder why you are job seeking Bernie...either screwed up in the past or waiting to screw up.
I happen to know quite a few people from the Tri's who are average RAF *** (BTW they are pretty **** good)
In my long and youthful career I have always found that the best way of helping people is to provide advice....
"Isn't it this sort of thing CRM is meant to prevent?...Thanks for not even trying to put to rest legitimate fears of falling standards in the AT world guys, guess you deserve what's coming! I'll be taking the bus next time!"
No advice there I think. I would be greatful to learn from your wisdom oh masterful one...if anybody out that happens to fly this smeghead anywhere please ensure the loadie serves him some of the captains special orange juice.
Last edited by Over_Shoot; 20th Feb 2007 at 01:10.
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Hmmmm....BTFF....not a Harrier pilot who was on his way to Fairford, in the vicinity of Kidlington last summer are you? Of course, that wouldn't be falling standards now would it....
