Brown treats the Services shabbily

[cockneyrock]

Just noticed this little Christmas Present from MOD:

No jumps for Paras as MoD cuts £1bn

Hope Gordon now realises that we are not even going to train our troops properly now!!

Flying Pay next?

[boogie-nicey]

It's enough to make you sick, just give me a couple of minutes with this sh1t head Brown and I'd love to 'express my point of view'. My blood is boiling everytime they pull this kind of stunt, what next, cut back on rifles?
The true enemy is that New Labour regime in power at the moment, sh00t every one of those deceitful little sh1ts.

[Not_a_boffin]

While agreeing with you about Fat Gordon and his bunch of grasping acolytes, there is another (less obvious) source of the pain. The MoD centre organisation has become conditioned to the use of a process (DPAs, SAG scenarios etc) which almost inevitably results in force structure cuts (although they disguise it as cost-effective capability). Almost every single assumption used in town (and this goes back many years) assumes that as there is no discernable major power threat to the UK, we can do more and more in coalitions and therefore reduce our "unaffordable" systems / forces, which is actually CS-speak for hold the defence budget constant, reduce in real terms.....

Although the RR threat is acknowledged it is somehow overlooked / ignored along the lines of "oh we'll have plenty of warning to/regenerate / reconstitute etc". Unfortunately, the decisions being made now across all three services (and industry for that matter) are based on these assumptions and contrary to CS perceptions are irrevocable.

I know these sorts of assumptions have precedent (5:5:3 ratio of the Washington treaty etc), but I don't believe there was ever the implicit assumption that defence expenditure could continue to decline without correction.

This is not intended as a slight on the CS guys actually supporting the front-line - it's the ones in town doing the Treasury's bidding we need to worry about.

[Chugalug2]

Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin

Although the RR threat is acknowledged it is somehow overlooked / ignored along the lines of "oh we'll have plenty of warning to/regenerate / reconstitute etc". Unfortunately, the decisions being made now across all three services (and industry for that matter) are based on these assumptions and contrary to CS perceptions are irrevocable.
I know these sorts of assumptions have precedent (5:5:3 ratio of the Washington treaty etc), but I don't believe there was ever the implicit assumption that defence expenditure could continue to decline without correction.

Excellent point Nab! If it wasn't for the likes of Mitchell, Watson-Watt and Dowding the infamous ten year plan would have done for us. As it was it scuppered our defences in the Far East. You will never have plenty of time, because the timing is set by the aggressor. He will be spouting peace up to the last minute, and you'd better be ready or else!

[wokkameister]

I too am appalled at the treatment of the forces as a whole. Life at Odius is on a shoestring at present. We have to get high level approval for approaches to civvy airfields because we can't afford the landing fees. Leaning is biting, and the tempo unrelenting. But amongst all of this, when we pack our smart black holdalls and depart for a flight at BZZ that may or may not leave that week, we must pack hope.
Hope that change is on it's way. Hope that we are reaching the depths, from which the only way is up. Hope that as a team, we can carry each other through what are essentially, pretty crappy times.
Hop has carried the British Forces through black times before. The Battle of Britain and the evacuation of Dunkirk being prime examples.
Look after your crew, mates, or even the person that hands you a new pair of socks. Until things get better, we only have each other.

[Melchett01]

Until things get better, we only have each other

I wish you were right Wokka. Over here, it seems there are far too many who have gone to the dark side already and, having seen it before at previous Joint units I have served on, there is no going back.

Now every question, every plan to do something that 10-15 years ago would have been regarded as sensible and in the best interests of the front line, any suggestion that might make life a little bit better for all concerned is greeted with an automatic response of 'No, we're not going to help because of x,y & z sh!t excuse', an initial half hearted appearance of helping out in the hope that if things are made TFD we will go away and in either case, always accompanied with the all important question 'who is paying?'

Far far too many people have lost sight about what the armed forces are all about - and it isn't budgets. Maybe I should say that a bit louder for all those of you out there who have forgotten that, whose first response to anything is 'it's not coming out of my budget'. I'd love to get you all in a room and re-educate you, but it would be a waste of time -too many of you are lost causes whose military ethos has been replaced with accountant speak. Shame on you.

Wokka, I applaude your sentiment, but I'm afraid you're too late. We're being nobbled from the inside out by too many of our own kind.

[MReyn24050]

LFFC wrote:-
"You can see the plot now. New Labour do really badly on Thursday, Blair resigns to let Brown in very soon."

On the other hand if the results are really bad on Thursday Blair could say it is a result of the country not wanting Brown and therefore he has decided to stay on as PM.

[ZH875]

And the forces haven't got enough rounds to shoot them both

[Hilife]

Old red eyes will hand Brown a poisoned chalice on Friday morning and I can’t help but think that he will be grinning whilst he does it.

[LFFC]

Here's another interesting clip in today's Torygraph:

Lord Guthrie, the former chief of the defence staff, almost resigned over Gordon Brown's attempts to slash the budgets of the army, navy and air force.

In an interview for Channel 4's The Rise and Fall of Tony Blair, to be broadcast on Saturday, the general - who oversaw the conflict in Kosovo - raises concerns about the next Prime Minister's commitment to the armed forces.

Lord Guthrie reveals his "horror" at the way in which the Chancellor tried to sabotage the Ministry of Defence's funding plan at the last minute shortly before publication of the strategic defence review in 1998.


When he protested to Tony Blair he was told to put his case directly to Mr Brown, because he would find it too "difficult".

Guess that tells us more about what to expect in the future.

[Flatus Veteranus]

The most significant word in Lord Guthrie's piece is "almost" (resigned). I, like most people during a full career, "almost" resigned ,say, 1,000 times. Its easy.

[LFFC]

Brown 'shows contempt for forces'

Looks like another ex-chief has spoken out at last. BBC News - 22 Nov 07

[Al R]

Not so fast. It seems the feckless 5 were wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7108650.stm


Mr Twigg insisted that current defence chiefs did not share the concerns of their predecessors. He said: "I talk to our chiefs of staff - I was with them yesterday - and they are very clear that the confidence is not broken, that the morale is good and we are very committed to improving things further."

Phew.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Seems like the chiefs of staff must have the same "la, la,la, not listening" problem as their political lords and masters.

[Chicken Leg]

Mr Twigg insisted that current defence chiefs did not share the concerns of their predecessors

Come on Al! Did you expect Twiggy to admit that the current incumbants agree? I think that current CGS has raised his concerns on a number of occasions albeit in a slightly more subtle way. After all, he is still in post.

Good on the '5'. If nothing else it helps to raise awareness of just how badly morale and conditions currently are.

[Al R]

I listened to Des on the radiogram this morning, waffling about his job share scheme. He was forced to admit that he spends all his work time on defence, and looks after Plopland at weekends and in the evenings instead of having a familiy, social and consituency life.

I was stunned that a) he could be allowed to say something which sounded so foolish and made him look such a desperate twonk, and b) that he and that other Broone could ever think this (concept) was an acceptable state of affairs.

Twigg is a complete and utter tool. A political bag carrier.

[WhiteOvies]

Wasn't it Boyce who stood up next to Hoon at a press conference and made him look like the idiot he is? Don't remember him lasting long after that but standing by to be corrected!

[Siggie]

Exerpt from BBC news web page.

'Morale 'high'
"I will put my record in relation to both commitment and delivery up against anyone's," said Mr Browne.
"This is not an issue that has ever been raised with me by any serving soldier." '
Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr Browne has indicated that no serving soldier (I guess Airmen/Airwomen or Sailors don't count) has ever complained to him about underspending, low morale etc etc.
In order to make it easier for you to rectify this situation here's a page for you to send your complaints to;
w ww.number10.gov.uk/output/page821.asp

[Siggie]

My mistake, Des Browne's email address should be;
House of Commons: [email protected]

[Al R]

Siggie.

Ref that 'e-mail the PM' blah' in the link you posted, if you 'select a subject from the drop down menu' to pigeon hole your area of concern, then Defence isn't even on there.

Say no more.