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Brown treats the Services shabbily

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Brown treats the Services shabbily

Old 8th Dec 2006, 09:30
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Brown treats the Services shabbily

Good article in the online Telegraph today by John Keegan:-
Brown treats the Services shabbily

However, I despair at the inability of the so-called political Opposition to really take Blair, Brown and Browne to task over their policies and their facile statements about giving the troops everything they need....... On Newsnight last night, Jeff Randall (a journalist) made a much better fist of supporting the troops than David Davies. Whilst Ruth Kelly..............well, words fail me.

Should Brown become PM then a bad situation will become a desperate situation. I feel for all of the Armed Forces who are putting their lives on the line. Enough said.
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Old 8th Dec 2006, 09:38
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A politicians sole aim is to gain power and there are no votes in the Military. Also, due to the disasters that are Afghanistan and Iraq, it will be a very long time before our politicians call on the military option again. So, we are actually not that relevant to any party at the moment. They would all be much happier if we just faded away quietly.
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Old 8th Dec 2006, 09:48
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The SUN is on the rampage as well today, will probably last untill the next E-list celebrity stubbs their toe.

N.B. No I don't read the Sun, it was on display when I was getting my sausage,bacon and mushroom bap today.
 
Old 8th Dec 2006, 10:16
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GPMG, I see what you mean - I've just looked at The Sun's web site. Pretty punchy stuff and long overdue from any shade of the media.
Armed farces are cut to shreds!

There is a linked article on the RAF's lack of aircraft:-
OVERWORKED Royal Air Force passenger jets have broken down — leaving only ONE to ferry British troops to and from the war zones in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Let us hope that Joe Public actually reads, absorbs and reacts to these stories.
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Old 8th Dec 2006, 10:30
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I'm all for giving Brown, Blair and any other one of these traitors a good bruising. Whether it's the media, comments from significant figurehads or even a physical slap I've got no problem with that at all.

But once again the 'head in the sand' or should I say 'head in big brother/x factor' public are the ones who have allowed the government to get away with it. I don't know who Tony sleeps at night, this is not a simple con man on the loose depriving old lady's of their family silver this is a man who's asking soldiers to risk there lives with next to nothing equipment. It's the armed forces professionalism that has got them this far and the government still can't show an ounce of respect. We see almost daily the BBC airing another one of those "look how hard done by this person is" fly on the documentaries yet I rarely if ever hear what they're doing about the serious business of the fighting men and women. But in that respect I blame the BBC they're desperate to spread their own leftist agenda too. (getting a little off track here, sorry).
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Old 8th Dec 2006, 10:42
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Originally Posted by Lyneham Lad
Good article in the online Telegraph today by John Keegan:-
Brown treats the Services shabbily

However, I despair at the inability of the so-called political Opposition to really take Blair, Brown and Browne to task over their policies and their facile statements about giving the troops everything they need....... On Newsnight last night, Jeff Randall (a journalist) made a much better fist of supporting the troops than David Davies. Whilst Ruth Kelly..............well, words fail me.

Should Brown become PM then a bad situation will become a desperate situation. I feel for all of the Armed Forces who are putting their lives on the line. Enough said.
Unless Brown's offspring show an interest in the military. Then, as with the Child Benefit and Working Tax Credit improvements once his wife had sprogged, and now the massive injection of cash to the Education pot now his children will be going to school in a few years, plus the additional funding for medical purposes that will become evident at the next Budget, we may see enough for the military to buy more than a couple of tyre chains for Arctic warfare.
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Old 10th Dec 2006, 08:00
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The Brown Tartan Gang

To the English.
Have you noticed how many Scottish MPs are in the present government? And how many are ministers?
How can these people be allowed top 'arrange' England now they have their own assembly? I would have thought this should have precluded them from sitting in Westminster, let alone having such powers. But, I suppose the Vicar needs all the support he can get.

Back to the thread. Many moons ago as a member of Her Majesty's many (there were lots of us in those days). An old chief said to me 'Do you notice that when there is a Labour government in power they always have defence cuts? And the services who always take the brunt are the navy and air force?'
His theory was that the army belonged to the government, but members of the navy and air force swore their allegience to the sovreign. Therefore, we could not be depended upon to support the Labour party, perhaps the Conservatives think the same way, although Maggie did give a fair pay raise once. Maybe he had something, as reading through this forum I see things have only continued to deteriorate from my day.

Good luck to you all and come home on your own legs.
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Old 10th Dec 2006, 09:19
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Brown for pm :D

The worst thing you can do is leave your chums behind enemy lines to save your sorry ass And on the same par you can do is send an force to war as freindly target without ammo
Remember we got to win the hearts and minds of iraqis and afghans so how do we do it,
Easy says the Pm in waiting let us send our forces unarmed the locals will have a easy target to shoot at
Jokes apart
The joe public is more intrested in Xfactor or all those poxy reality shows even pudsey managed to raise money for some kids in africa The deaths of men and women in iraq and afghanisthan has become just a number nobody is bothered apart from the families of the lost ones
And one thing is guarnteed change of govt will not bring any new ammo to the forces
But a rise in logistics will certainly change the strength of our forces
enough of my rant, Back to my sheeps
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Old 10th Dec 2006, 10:47
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The media seem to be waking up to this en masse now. Minette Marrin has a piece in the Sunday Times today:

It would be nice to think that this [requiring berieved families to pay for records - BE] was an unusual error — a bureaucratic blip — and that the armed forces and their families are normally treated with the respect and gratitude they deserve. Not so. In fact the way that servicemen and women are treated is almost an object lesson in how to mismanage and demoralise what was once one of the greatest military forces in the world. This has been obvious for a long time but we seem to have reached some sort of tipping point.
Her final paragraph:

This is not just wrong. It is decadent. For if we lack the will to defend ourselves, or rather to defend those who are there to defend us and to fight for us, then we are simply rolling over to display the soft underbelly of decadence to the world’s predators and scavengers. Those who think that our armed forces don’t matter will soon discover that other people’s do.
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Old 10th Dec 2006, 11:22
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[quote=JamesA;3011591]To the English.
Have you noticed how many Scottish MPs are in the present government? And how many are ministers?
How can these people be allowed top 'arrange' England now they have their own assembly? I would have thought this should have precluded them from sitting in Westminster, let alone having such powers. But, I suppose the Vicar needs all the support he can get.

And for years we in Scotland have been shaffted by English MP's. Sorry about the thread creep, but I am fed up with this argument. If we can't have Scottish cabinet members in the UK government, then it would be fair to assume that we cannot have English, Welsh, Irish cabinet members dictating policy to the UK either. If you think devolution is such a good idea then vote for it yourself, and you will get your "other" layer of government, for all it is worth.
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Old 10th Dec 2006, 11:47
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Thread creep and return

Dan Gerous,
I agree with you. The difference here is that in days gone by when England shafted someone she sent the troops with the kit to do the job, just refer to your history. Your haggis scoffer wants the British military to be the few who can do the impossible with bu99er all.
As an ex-serviceman, if they have to sort some politician's ego trip, I say give the military the best money can buy at least to defend themselves. Not hide behind it's a great advertisement for the British arms industry. Because if they haven't got the best - who is going to buy from Britain?
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Old 10th Dec 2006, 12:31
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Originally Posted by boogie-nicey
It's the armed forces professionalism that has got them this far .
Maybe that's part of the problem. Why spend money when the troops are so professional that they will get the job done anyway?

The only time it'll change is when we are given a few bloody noses and made to look bad. The Sun will certainly pick up on something like that.

Unfortunately it'll cost lives, but then Bliar doesn't really worry about that does he?
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Old 11th Dec 2006, 10:44
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If we can't have Scottish cabinet members in the UK government, then it would be fair to assume that we cannot have English, Welsh, Irish cabinet members dictating policy to the UK either.
..yer missing the point Dan.

My (our) concern is those areas in which English MPs (or Cabinet Ministers) cannot vote as those areas have been devolved.

Examples: I live in Shropshire, my sister-in-law lives in Motherwell, my mate lives in Cardiff. The (Westminster) MPs for Cardiff and Motherwell can and do vote on (inter alia) education and health in Shropshire. My Shropshire MP cannot vote on education or health in Cardiff or Motherwell. Simple solution would seem to be to not let Scotch, Welsh or Norn Iron MPs vote on those matters which were devolved .... it's called a level playing field...

Oh, but then Bliar's majority vanishes...... so the Scotchmen can vote for Uni tuition charges in England, while their devolved mates vote not to have them in Jockistan... the Westminster Taffia vote for prescription charges in England, when they (mostly) avoid them in the so-called Principality....

It's called the "West Lothian Question" and was first identified and named by top porridge-wog (Sir) Tam Dalyell (of the Binns)......
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Old 13th Dec 2006, 13:42
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Grrr

Gordon Brown's just an embarasement to the nation.... and he can take that stupid grin with him.
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Old 15th Dec 2006, 21:16
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Telegraph

....For it becomes increasingly clear that having embarked on expensive adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Prime Minister forfeited control over paying for the cost of them. Our Forces engaged in these enterprises have been ill-served.

As John Keegan observed on this page last week, there is an anti-military clique in the Treasury which regards spending on the Armed Forces as a diversion of funds from the social budget. Mr Brown has tolerated this and the Prime Minister is unable to redirect him.


.... and he's going to be the next PM?
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Old 16th Dec 2006, 16:20
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Today in 1647 Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas

In 1653 he banned Parliament and declared himself as Lord Protector because he was getting really fed up with corrupt institutions, both royal and political, and was then obliged to sort out Charles 1

He established what we think today as a democracy

I wonder what action he would take now about recent events?
Pension fund theft - stealth taxes - illegal wars - honours for cash - whitewash reports - sacrificing the rule of law for? well, anything that's appropriate

He would be very angry if not mad, but would certainly get the perpertrators.

Oh what joy to be a peasant and pay the congestion charge to have a front view stand at the scaffold in Whitehall
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Old 16th Dec 2006, 17:11
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Originally Posted by buoy15
Today in 1647 Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas
In 1653 he banned Parliament and declared himself as Lord Protector because he was getting really fed up with corrupt institutions, both royal and political, and was then obliged to sort out Charles 1
He established what we think today as a democracy
You may well say that buoy, the only comment I would make is that he had a Standing Army, we don't. Along with the other Armed Forces, the Army is effectively 'renewed' every year by Parliament to protect us from a latter day 'Lord Protector', and his own very special kind of "democracy"
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Old 17th Dec 2006, 15:44
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Yeh! Yeh! - "renewing - reviewing - lessons learned - changes taking place - should not have happened - a unique situation - overwhelming odds - unforseen - support is forthcoming - did not anticipate - as much armour as they need - blah blah blah and spin!"

Are you telling me that Bliar has not got a standing Army?

I follow Parliamentry procedures and cannot see where the Army in particular, and the Armed Forces in general, are renewed every year?

Is this another of one of those situations where this Government supports a "latter day Lord Protector principle" to serve their needs, whilst attempting to abolish the position of Lord Chancellor and the "Principle of Law" after 1000 years of history and democracy, to bring this country into the 21st century using bribes and blackmail for economic contracts and advantage

I think the Director of the SFO has more to say!!

As Churchill said " Democracy is not the best form of government, but it's the best we have"

I think Cromwell would have agreed with him

Last edited by buoy15; 17th Dec 2006 at 15:59.
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Old 17th Dec 2006, 19:51
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Then play them at their own game....

The joe public is more intrested in Xfactor or all those poxy reality shows even pudsey managed to raise money for some kids in africa The deaths of men and women in iraq and afghanisthan has become just a number nobody is bothered apart from the families of the lost ones
How about "I'm a Celebrity (or MP?) Get Me Out Of Here - Helmand Edition"

Then see what Joe Public thinks?
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Old 17th Dec 2006, 23:40
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Originally Posted by buoy15
Chugalug
Are you telling me that Bliar has not got a standing Army?
I follow Parliamentry procedures and cannot see where the Army in particular, and the Armed Forces in general, are renewed every year?
Its an old chestnut, buoy. In the old days each service had a separate bill passed every year, ie in the case of the RAF it became the Air Force Act 19xx etc. If it wasn't enacted then theoretically the RAF would cease to exist and similarly for the other services. Now I believe it is all consolidated in the Armed Services Act 2006, etc, which has just been passed, so the pay is good for another year (JPA withstanding)! I think that's about it but no doubt the constitutional experts will correct me. Hence my point that the Army (and the others) is not a standing one, but renewed annually, not by the government but by the will of parliament. Am important distinction, for I share your aversion to Bliar and his cronies. I'm afraid I can't share your undiluted enthusiasm for OC though. He might have accomplished a lot for us, the principle achievement being to keep us out of the Revolutionary fervour exported later from France across Europe. We were able to say no thanks, already got (or had) one! None the less he took power and held it by armed force. Hence all the checks and balances today, of which The Armed Forces Act is an arcane example.
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