WSOP LDRs conference
Join Date: Nov 2001
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bwfg3,
Good to hear from you matey,
Like you, my family must and will always come first. You join up, get married and have children. At those special points in life your responsibilities change and your priorities change too. I have the greatest respect for the decision you have taken, it must have been a difficult one.
I am also in a position similar to yours, both professionally and personally. If the PI ends up on my desk, I hope I have the moral courage to make the right decision and look after those loved ones, who have supported me whilst serving around the world and who will be with me long after the blue fun machine has let me go.
Like you, I also enjoy this silly game we call an RAF career and I would hate to be put in a position which left me no option but to consider a different career path.
I can't understand PMA saying that there are no slots in the short to medium term at Waddo, as it was only announced last week by the CO, that from next year onwards, the OCU is to increase course output from 2 to 3 courses per year. There is obviously 1 extra slot per year from now on that PMA had not initially catered for.
A QFI on the OCU has definately been tasked to look at a couse for a LM.
Loyalty should be a two way thing? Good luck, matey
Ginge
Good to hear from you matey,
Like you, my family must and will always come first. You join up, get married and have children. At those special points in life your responsibilities change and your priorities change too. I have the greatest respect for the decision you have taken, it must have been a difficult one.
I am also in a position similar to yours, both professionally and personally. If the PI ends up on my desk, I hope I have the moral courage to make the right decision and look after those loved ones, who have supported me whilst serving around the world and who will be with me long after the blue fun machine has let me go.
Like you, I also enjoy this silly game we call an RAF career and I would hate to be put in a position which left me no option but to consider a different career path.
I can't understand PMA saying that there are no slots in the short to medium term at Waddo, as it was only announced last week by the CO, that from next year onwards, the OCU is to increase course output from 2 to 3 courses per year. There is obviously 1 extra slot per year from now on that PMA had not initially catered for.
A QFI on the OCU has definately been tasked to look at a couse for a LM.
Loyalty should be a two way thing? Good luck, matey
Ginge
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Funny really, it doesn't seem to matter how often you mention to PMA that there is a manning problem out there waiting to hit them in the face, they never react, quoting instead that budgeting won't allow them to be pro active. At the last Arch Bishops and Rocket Scientists convention I attended (10 years ago), this topic was discussed but dismissed by the Personnel Misshandling Agency rep.
At the end of the day, I fear some individuals will have to balance their family life and 'Queen's Shilling', against the requirements of the Service, something we are being asked to do with increasing regularity.
At the end of the day, I fear some individuals will have to balance their family life and 'Queen's Shilling', against the requirements of the Service, something we are being asked to do with increasing regularity.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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The argument against a move in the RAF, based on children and schooling is flawed and selfish. We all have choices. If you serve, you can decide to have , or not have, children. Or, if you have children, you can decide to join, or not join, or leave the Service. If you decide to have children while in the Services, you must consider, at an early point in their lives, how they will be schooled. The Services provide help with boarding school allowance, etc, not to mention the DYRMS and QVS. Or, if boarding is not acceptable, then Dad can go boarding...in the Mess. PVR/NGR is the ultimate choice, in matters of settled schooling.
Most of us hope for a settled family life and, indeed, most of us in the RAF are lucky and it happens. But, it is luck, and not a right.
Most of us hope for a settled family life and, indeed, most of us in the RAF are lucky and it happens. But, it is luck, and not a right.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I agree with some of your comments AC, Particularly regarding kids and the fact that single mums serve etc... however... PMA promised postings and then retract? training other trades into the very OCU you were (allegedly) promised? Doesnt wash with me mate. And finally.. Theres a time to uproot people.. If PMA had given me 3 years, I wouldnt have batted an eyelid. ( P.S my last posting was in 2004.. so stability.? you're having a giraffe mate)
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Whoa, I'm not supporting PMA in the subject of a cancelled posting and putting unqualified people on the cancelled OCU. In that regard I'm with you, if that is the case. Career development is a two way street; we'll make ourselves available for postings, or leave the Service, and in return PMA must look ahead, explore all reasonable avenues and keep to their promises.
Lets be clear. Are you saying that your man at PMA:
1. Told you, with no room for doubt, that you will be posted to E-3 next year.
2. Intended to post you from your current station (Lyneham?) to another station (Waddington) within 3 years of your arrival on your current station (is this is what you meant by " If PMA had given me 3 years, I wouldnt have batted an eyelid. ( P.S my last posting was in 2004.. so stability.? "
2. Went back on his word and told you that there are no slots available on E-D and cancelled your move.
3. Then made arrangements for a LM to proceed on the E-3 course that you were told you were assigned to.
I suggest you think carefully before you answer.
I know about the LM. Its a flawed plan regardless of anything else.
Lets be clear. Are you saying that your man at PMA:
1. Told you, with no room for doubt, that you will be posted to E-3 next year.
2. Intended to post you from your current station (Lyneham?) to another station (Waddington) within 3 years of your arrival on your current station (is this is what you meant by " If PMA had given me 3 years, I wouldnt have batted an eyelid. ( P.S my last posting was in 2004.. so stability.? "
2. Went back on his word and told you that there are no slots available on E-D and cancelled your move.
3. Then made arrangements for a LM to proceed on the E-3 course that you were told you were assigned to.
I suggest you think carefully before you answer.
I know about the LM. Its a flawed plan regardless of anything else.
I am not saying that loadies cannot fill the eng seat as we are all one trade now. You can put anyone in any crew position but you have to give them basic
training at a FTS, as happen now if an eng/aeop wants to go SH. Unfortunately there is no eng school at which to get eng training anymore, I know cause I was there when they shut it even though we said it was too early.
Good luck on your decision bwfg3 putting family first is a RIGHT you have under NGR and I cannot understand why some people have a problem with it. As too Engs doing what PMA tells them to do, I think they shot themselves in the foot when the Eng cadre was made a rare but still vital breed.
You aint seen me right.
Last edited by snakepit; 22nd Nov 2006 at 08:08.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Just to (briefly) go back to the thread’s original subject, I agree wholeheartedly with Could Be The Last’s view.
The forum has real potential to become the influencing voice in the future of the WSOp cadre, a fact confirmed by the presence of the (Gp Capt) Branch Sponsor representatives. It should also be remembered that no parallel body exists for commissioned WSOs, – the empowered WSOps have a real chance to make a difference here, providing their act is together.
Despite the debate here regarding Eng manning (more of which later…..) for me, the real hot issue to grip now is Job Evaluation. The honesty of the WSOp (ALM) Desk Officer regarding his initial ignorance of the Job Eval process, while refreshing, also highlighted a complete lack of corporate continuity within PMA over the past 4 years. The Lessons Identified prior to / during / after the successful Job Eval of the AEOp cadre in 2000 have obviously been forgotten and need to re-learned quickly. With the latest Job Eval placing all WSOp ranks firmly in the lower Pay Band, ‘Management Discretion’ had to be applied to maintain the cadre on the upper level – in other words, you were “given a bye”. Make no mistake though, ‘Management Discretion’ will not last forever (as the AEOps found out in 1989, after 2 stays of execution). As soon as they can get away with it, the Treasury bean counters will push to uphold Job Eval findings – and for that reason, the cadre needs to get and remain savvy on the Job Eval process so that, come 4 years time, the right (and just) result is achieved.
As far as postings to ISK go, does anybody out there have a solution to PMA’s manning problems, rather than a list of all the reasons why they (to paraphrase Sideshow Bob) can’t “help out the other guy”? The bottom line is that Innsworth has to man the Service’s aircrew seats; does anyone really think that the PMA33 dept is merely out to inconvenience as many people as possible? Some individuals seem to have a 200-mile UK radius of action based on the Oxon/Wilts border that precludes them fulfilling the DUTY they accept the (still relatively lucrative) Shilling for. Sure, NGR/PVR are rights, but please don’t imply that staying in England was the only criterion for not exercising that right. As others have already stated, children’s education would not suffer just because Dad or Mum had a longer-than-to-Waddo commute. Many “can-do” others have done their ISK stretch (you could say their “bit”?) while unaccompanied. In my experience, those people were invariably highly appreciated by their section Ldrs (who, by the way, are empowered now aren’t they?) to the point that regular long weekends were massaged out of the programme for them, with the total approval of the rest of their Sqn peers in acknowledgement of the fact that they were pulling their weight for the brevet. To all those that exercise the NGR/PVR right, I wish you well – but it hardly helps the situation does it…….
The forum has real potential to become the influencing voice in the future of the WSOp cadre, a fact confirmed by the presence of the (Gp Capt) Branch Sponsor representatives. It should also be remembered that no parallel body exists for commissioned WSOs, – the empowered WSOps have a real chance to make a difference here, providing their act is together.
Despite the debate here regarding Eng manning (more of which later…..) for me, the real hot issue to grip now is Job Evaluation. The honesty of the WSOp (ALM) Desk Officer regarding his initial ignorance of the Job Eval process, while refreshing, also highlighted a complete lack of corporate continuity within PMA over the past 4 years. The Lessons Identified prior to / during / after the successful Job Eval of the AEOp cadre in 2000 have obviously been forgotten and need to re-learned quickly. With the latest Job Eval placing all WSOp ranks firmly in the lower Pay Band, ‘Management Discretion’ had to be applied to maintain the cadre on the upper level – in other words, you were “given a bye”. Make no mistake though, ‘Management Discretion’ will not last forever (as the AEOps found out in 1989, after 2 stays of execution). As soon as they can get away with it, the Treasury bean counters will push to uphold Job Eval findings – and for that reason, the cadre needs to get and remain savvy on the Job Eval process so that, come 4 years time, the right (and just) result is achieved.
As far as postings to ISK go, does anybody out there have a solution to PMA’s manning problems, rather than a list of all the reasons why they (to paraphrase Sideshow Bob) can’t “help out the other guy”? The bottom line is that Innsworth has to man the Service’s aircrew seats; does anyone really think that the PMA33 dept is merely out to inconvenience as many people as possible? Some individuals seem to have a 200-mile UK radius of action based on the Oxon/Wilts border that precludes them fulfilling the DUTY they accept the (still relatively lucrative) Shilling for. Sure, NGR/PVR are rights, but please don’t imply that staying in England was the only criterion for not exercising that right. As others have already stated, children’s education would not suffer just because Dad or Mum had a longer-than-to-Waddo commute. Many “can-do” others have done their ISK stretch (you could say their “bit”?) while unaccompanied. In my experience, those people were invariably highly appreciated by their section Ldrs (who, by the way, are empowered now aren’t they?) to the point that regular long weekends were massaged out of the programme for them, with the total approval of the rest of their Sqn peers in acknowledgement of the fact that they were pulling their weight for the brevet. To all those that exercise the NGR/PVR right, I wish you well – but it hardly helps the situation does it…….
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Doh!
I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait
!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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During my time at Rompers Green the 'scottish' issue often raised its head,normally a bi-annual event but recently more often. The usual list of reasons 'not' to go were dragged out, but eventually some junior was given his marching orders north. One of the many problems with the system for choosing who went where, was the lack of transparency in the whole process. We would start with a slot for a Meng and eventually a Sgt would head north. It was always obvious that it would happen.... the service will lose its younger more able personnel because it hasnt developed a transparent joined-up policy on posting.
5d2d
5d2d
The Lessons Identified prior to / during / after the successful Job Eval of the AEOp cadre in 2000 have obviously been forgotten and need to re-learned quickly. With the latest Job Eval placing all WSOp ranks firmly in the lower Pay Band, ‘Management Discretion’ had to be applied to maintain the cadre on the upper level – in other words, you were “given a bye”. Make no mistake though, ‘Management Discretion’ will not last forever (as the AEOps found out in 1989, after 2 stays of execution). As soon as they can get away with it, the Treasury bean counters will push to uphold Job Eval findings – and for that reason, the cadre needs to get and remain savvy on the Job Eval process so that, come 4 years time, the right (and just) result is achieved.
The moral boost of the loadies getting up banded will not last long as the possibility of pay cuts across the NCA cadre starts to hit home. How long before we start to here phrases like "you might not be so lucky in 4 years time so you had better pull your collective fingers out". It shows that nothing is sacred not even your pay. A big thank you to all involved with putting us all in the higher band, but we still have the bitter pill to swallow that we are not worth the money in the systems eyes and I am sure we will be reminded of it when it suits the airships.
IMHO if the airships really think we are worth the money (and someone obviously does as we are still in the higher band) then scrap the ridiculous system that threatens to change your pay every 5 years.
Get on the PA spine if you can before the next job eval.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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bwfg3
How does with no grease sound. Know you have been. Not a lot else been muttered really. It shocks me in the current day and age that they can do this to people. The closure of the Eng school and the sudden extension of the MR2 and the shiny10 to at least the next decade(2015.........at least for the 10!!) whilst turning off the tap should have set big alarm bells ringing instead of the blazee attitude that has obviously been taken. A surplus (potential) here at LYN and a deficit at KIN-easy maths for an uncaring un-thinking PMA. Also the new upbanding (not for our ALM brothers and sisters I quickly hasten to add-I may be one shortly, and very long overdue-but the lack of parity now between the ALM pay banding and the rest of the NCA cadre) Good work if you can get it but why are some folk who have been in Rank of 2 yrs getting what it would take the rest of us 6 years to earn?? JPA cant compute I think.Correct me if Im wrong but a few wry smiles here at the nations TAC AT HQ.Writing on the wall for some-me included
How does with no grease sound. Know you have been. Not a lot else been muttered really. It shocks me in the current day and age that they can do this to people. The closure of the Eng school and the sudden extension of the MR2 and the shiny10 to at least the next decade(2015.........at least for the 10!!) whilst turning off the tap should have set big alarm bells ringing instead of the blazee attitude that has obviously been taken. A surplus (potential) here at LYN and a deficit at KIN-easy maths for an uncaring un-thinking PMA. Also the new upbanding (not for our ALM brothers and sisters I quickly hasten to add-I may be one shortly, and very long overdue-but the lack of parity now between the ALM pay banding and the rest of the NCA cadre) Good work if you can get it but why are some folk who have been in Rank of 2 yrs getting what it would take the rest of us 6 years to earn?? JPA cant compute I think.Correct me if Im wrong but a few wry smiles here at the nations TAC AT HQ.Writing on the wall for some-me included
