RAF Meltdown - Has it begun?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It first became an issue of discussion when there was talk (very brief I'm glad to say) of merging the supply and engineer branches; and proposing to allow suppliers to hold down engineer posts. Yup, you read it right!
As an idea it lasted, oh, days or a few weeks in the very early 90s until the recognition the RAF's fleet would drift into CAA control, for which the RAF would have to pay civilian rates for servicing through the CAA.
As a nav I could hardly believe my ears, so heaven only knows what the eng's thought.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: roughly near Everleigh DZ
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, whatever........
Yeah, but its like but y'know but the f@king enginerrs like didnt like tell us like y'now like where it was like kinda parked and its all like kinda rubbish 'cos they don't listen to me like like dya know what i mean like i mean but y'know 'cos its like all rubbish like.
Fg Off V Pollard
D Ops Cntrlr
RAF Little Brittain
Fg Off V Pollard
D Ops Cntrlr
RAF Little Brittain
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,132
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
Thank god someone saw sense, although the shift of Supply from Admin to Eng wing still happened and was almost as bad an idea.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Chugalug2
only because PAYD seems to have stalled.
GMP
Too late. In the fictional drama, Mrs Pritchard (Tuesday nights) a couple of weeks back they said how CAAs powers had been devolved to Europe. On Sunday the Sunday Torygraph carried much the same story and mentioned that morale in the CAA was at rock bottom with many jumping ship. Now that is really really worrying.
and
Ah, if at first a frontal assault fails lets try the back door. "I know, we will let you take over Supply. You can be called OC Eng and Supply Wg. How's that Sir?"
Later, tears (sic although I initially meant years) later, "We need a bit of reorganisation for this new EAW concept, let's call you OC Forward Sir. You can sort the engineering on any deployed kit. All the other stuff like stores and jets in the shed? Oh we'll call that the Logistics tail, need an OC Logistics Wing though. Yes Sir, I guess he could be a supplier."
Fiction, mmm, well just watch. As for a supplier signing off a 700, no problem, you've got JEngOs and SEngOs for that. Supply could take all the non-signing jobs like OC the Wg.
and one can only hope that they are at least being fed well
GMP
If meltdown continues like this, assuming this is not wholly unexceptional, it won't be long before the CAA takes control. Now that really is a worry
and
It first became an issue of discussion when there was talk (very brief I'm glad to say) of merging the supply and engineer branches; and proposing to allow suppliers to hold down engineer posts.
Later, tears (sic although I initially meant years) later, "We need a bit of reorganisation for this new EAW concept, let's call you OC Forward Sir. You can sort the engineering on any deployed kit. All the other stuff like stores and jets in the shed? Oh we'll call that the Logistics tail, need an OC Logistics Wing though. Yes Sir, I guess he could be a supplier."
Fiction, mmm, well just watch. As for a supplier signing off a 700, no problem, you've got JEngOs and SEngOs for that. Supply could take all the non-signing jobs like OC the Wg.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: On the outside looking in
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regardless of the current 'state of the nation', I can't see that the CAA / EASA are going to step in and say 'Now hold a minute boys,.....'. Or that ACAS is going to say 'Actually, we need to surrender this'. Bit of a political A-bomb don't you think?
sw
sw
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: A lot closer to the sea
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN:
No need for a supplier, we have OC FWD Support and OC Depth Support (both engineers btw).
Ironically in the RN what used to be the Supply branch (Pusser) has now become the Logistics branch (still Pusser though). Most Logistics still seems to be done by Engineers however at the Ivory Tower in which I now sit!
Oh we'll call that the Logistics tail, need an OC Logistics Wing though. Yes Sir, I guess he could be a supplier."
Ironically in the RN what used to be the Supply branch (Pusser) has now become the Logistics branch (still Pusser though). Most Logistics still seems to be done by Engineers however at the Ivory Tower in which I now sit!
Well, maybe it's all coming to a head at last - What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander - and the Groundcrew walking out is just as damning as when all the Aircrew walked out, due to pay and conditions!.
It was said, before I left the RAF, that you can't expect to get engineers in, or to stay in, if you pay them the same as cooks, rocks and coppers. This, and the reduction in manpower and increase in workload is starting to take its Toll.
Hopefully, engineers will get some "retention pay" to try and persuade those remaining to stay in too. Though, from what I see, I think it is too late for that to be effective.
As for two years Cpl-to-Sgt? - that has been in force since Time Promotion went out in the 70's. You may see much more of younger "S" NCO's with the amount of experience you would expect a Cpl to have. No more than that of a young Flt Lt.
To the people that said there is reduced amount of aircraft (so less work?) - and that if need "he" can buy some engineers in - To55ers!
Watch the budget go up and the service come down.
It was said, before I left the RAF, that you can't expect to get engineers in, or to stay in, if you pay them the same as cooks, rocks and coppers. This, and the reduction in manpower and increase in workload is starting to take its Toll.
Hopefully, engineers will get some "retention pay" to try and persuade those remaining to stay in too. Though, from what I see, I think it is too late for that to be effective.
As for two years Cpl-to-Sgt? - that has been in force since Time Promotion went out in the 70's. You may see much more of younger "S" NCO's with the amount of experience you would expect a Cpl to have. No more than that of a young Flt Lt.
To the people that said there is reduced amount of aircraft (so less work?) - and that if need "he" can buy some engineers in - To55ers!
Watch the budget go up and the service come down.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: On the outside looking in
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember being in a briefing from a G/C on the implementation of Pay 2000 (when it was still expected to be 2000). He was asked about the issues around FRI for aircrew vs FRI for engineers. His statement was that as long as PMA could post the right number of engineers to the front line, there was no R&R crisis. When it became a problem, they would do something about it. I then pointed out to him that, by that time it would be years to late because recruitment and training lead times would hit.
And still people are being made redundant!
sw
And still people are being made redundant!
sw
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kinloss
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, maybe it's all coming to a head at last - What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander - and the Groundcrew walking out is just as damning as when all the Aircrew walked out, due to pay and conditions!.
It was said, before I left the RAF, that you can't expect to get engineers in, or to stay in, if you pay them the same as cooks, rocks and coppers. This, and the reduction in manpower and increase in workload is starting to take its Toll.
It was said, before I left the RAF, that you can't expect to get engineers in, or to stay in, if you pay them the same as cooks, rocks and coppers. This, and the reduction in manpower and increase in workload is starting to take its Toll.
Out of the last 10 wekends 7 have been working even though we are not scaled for the manpower to do this. The main fact is guys are walking into jobs off/on shore with wages that start ,in the main, at £40k for engineers. The RAF will never give its engineers the pay needed to keep the best of these guys but as there will always be somone to fill the gaps we will bimble on as usual.
The pay 2000 issue is a big stumbling block and many people are leaving simply beacuase cops and rocks etc are getting the same pay. A review and pay rise are well overdue to at least try and stem the massive flow of good techies to civvy sreet!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Flatlands
Age: 60
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During a recent tour round RAF No-Winsorth, the desk-jockeys confidently told the assembled group that post tranche 3 "a minor spike" was predicted, and therefore no surprise, when quizzed about PVR rates. If the figure of @700 SNCOs is a "spike", then I'm a Dutchman etc.....
Will there come a point when somebody with much braid declares the RAF "not fit for purpose", citing air-worthiness concerns? Brave man if he does.
Will there come a point when somebody with much braid declares the RAF "not fit for purpose", citing air-worthiness concerns? Brave man if he does.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having stood in awe and listened intently as the current CAS gave an inspirational speech highlighting the many virtues of Air Power, I wondered where did it all go wrong. He declared that it is the duty of all members of our good and gracious air force to advertise our ability to deliver air power to the battlefield fast and accurately over a wide area. We must when faced with non-believers (Army & Navy chaps) stand our ground and declare our capability with confidence and belief.
It seems that the years of jointery and so called purple forces have served only to destroy our standing with our brothers in arms. We are now expected to stand toe to toe in our respective Messes and argue a case, when perhaps our illustrious leaders have already lost the debate.
This sorry state of affairs has been the last straw for me and after 30 years of loyal service I have decided to vote with my feet. Not withstanding the overstretch and the lack of resources, it is the lack of drive and direction from upper and middle management that has finally made me call it a day. Too many individuals are trying to prove themselves to be great businessmen within industry whilst delegating the less Gucci, command and control areas of their posts to lesser mortals. Well !!! it is a damned sight harder to drive doctrine upwards when those on a higher plane are themselves non-believers.
The question of "is the Air Force in meltdown?" should be replaced with another "how do we stop the meltdown?" If the Air Force is to remain an independant fighting force then it needs to get back to basics and work to deliver its full promised fighting capability and sooner rather than later.
It seems that the years of jointery and so called purple forces have served only to destroy our standing with our brothers in arms. We are now expected to stand toe to toe in our respective Messes and argue a case, when perhaps our illustrious leaders have already lost the debate.
This sorry state of affairs has been the last straw for me and after 30 years of loyal service I have decided to vote with my feet. Not withstanding the overstretch and the lack of resources, it is the lack of drive and direction from upper and middle management that has finally made me call it a day. Too many individuals are trying to prove themselves to be great businessmen within industry whilst delegating the less Gucci, command and control areas of their posts to lesser mortals. Well !!! it is a damned sight harder to drive doctrine upwards when those on a higher plane are themselves non-believers.
The question of "is the Air Force in meltdown?" should be replaced with another "how do we stop the meltdown?" If the Air Force is to remain an independant fighting force then it needs to get back to basics and work to deliver its full promised fighting capability and sooner rather than later.
This is no 'spike'. It is now the case that almost everyone at work is talking about 'when' they are going to leave, not 'if'. Even if not all this talk actually leads to exits it is still a sea change from the attitude of a few years ago.
Are this desk jockneys blind to the clothes that the emperor is (not) wearing, or simply afraid to admit the truth!
Are this desk jockneys blind to the clothes that the emperor is (not) wearing, or simply afraid to admit the truth!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The idea didn't come from the Supply Branch you know? It was unpalatable to Stackers as it was to Engineers, after all it could have resulted in folk who had done zero engineering training at Cosford signing off repairs on a/c, not something I'd want on my conscience as those lads from St Athan dug out another smoking hole.
Thank god someone saw sense, although the shift of Supply from Admin to Eng wing still happened and was almost as bad an idea.
Thank god someone saw sense, although the shift of Supply from Admin to Eng wing still happened and was almost as bad an idea.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the other side of this coin, the problem is it wouldn't be a case of ACAS surrendering but of CAA enacting its legal rights under the Air Navigation and other Acts. I think that's what caused everyone to step back from the brink in the early 90s.
And supposing CAA didn't step in when it should have, and a problem occurs - in this litigous age, what then I wonder?
I think I'll go back to dreamland now where it's warm and safe and I don't have to worry about such things.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Oxfordshire
Age: 54
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With only 40,000 now, those rapidly pushed up to fill the garps left by the experienced SNCO do not have the luxury of safety in numbers, and with the extra burdens placed on all with JPA, OOA ops, On the job training of lower ranks and the new AMM's, keeping current with CCS, IRT, IDT, fitness, LITS, squeezing in leave etc, fear they may end up out of their depth and unable to deliver the quality Flight Safety demands.
A young Flt Lt has an old Flt Sgt to stop him screwing up - that's why there are first tourist posts!
By all means promote excellence, but I do fear we have gaps to fill, and will be forced to fill them with less than prepared people...
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, but back then we had enough manpower to cover the arse of those time promoted. I was time promoted to Cpl in 91, but we had 120,000 or so at the time.
With only 40,000 now, those rapidly pushed up to fill the gaps left by the experienced SNCO do not have the luxury of safety in numbers, and with the extra burdens placed on all with JPA, OOA ops, On the job training of lower ranks and the new AMM's, keeping current with CCS, IRT, IDT, fitness, LITS, squeezing in leave etc, fear they may end up out of their depth and unable to deliver the quality Flight Safety demands.
A young Flt Lt has an old Flt Sgt to stop him screwing up - that's why there are first tourist posts!
By all means promote excellence, but I do fear we have gaps to fill, and will be forced to fill them with less than prepared people...
With only 40,000 now, those rapidly pushed up to fill the gaps left by the experienced SNCO do not have the luxury of safety in numbers, and with the extra burdens placed on all with JPA, OOA ops, On the job training of lower ranks and the new AMM's, keeping current with CCS, IRT, IDT, fitness, LITS, squeezing in leave etc, fear they may end up out of their depth and unable to deliver the quality Flight Safety demands.
A young Flt Lt has an old Flt Sgt to stop him screwing up - that's why there are first tourist posts!
By all means promote excellence, but I do fear we have gaps to fill, and will be forced to fill them with less than prepared people...
These are issues I have pondered over long and hard and finally my conclusions are inconclusive. Oh dear what a conundrum was it just my inability to see the plan? or was the plan flawed? Answer: who cares I'm off "Good Luck"
Glum – I agree with all your statements and I would add that when a newly promoted SNCO is left in charge of a Line would be the most worrying time. But the only thing that those On–High will see is a smoking hole (I hate that phrase) and someone to blame it on.
If it does happen (heaven forbid) it should start an enquiry similar to that of the Mull of Kintyre Chinook. If it doesn't - start demanding one!
Unfortunately, experience is something you get just after you needed it.
(Not meant to be glib.)
If it does happen (heaven forbid) it should start an enquiry similar to that of the Mull of Kintyre Chinook. If it doesn't - start demanding one!
Unfortunately, experience is something you get just after you needed it.
(Not meant to be glib.)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Flatlands
Age: 60
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And now the end is near
A certain trade dear to my heart is now indeed in meltdown. There are now 4 confirmed PVRs a week, with two of those SNCOS. Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that those figures are unsustainable, and will eventually lead to a collapse of the trade. A certain secret airbase away from the Flatlands has already imploded, and is screaming for CMLO assistance as a matter of urgency. I predict we have a year left before the wheels fall off, and the lovely shiny aeroplanes they invested so much capital in are mere static displays.
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can you just imagine the career limiting discussion between the SEngO and his Supplier Wg Cdr boss, who disagrees or refuses to see the point of some important issue, and the SEngO has to go over his head?
So, best guess....that will be 2 careers ended, then!
