LMF

[virgo]

I've been reading a book titled "Aircrew" .....the story of the men who flew the bombers" by Bruce Lewis and the subject of Lack of Moral Fibre is raised.
According to his reports, any aircrew member suffering from LMF was off the squadron within hours, demoted and given a deliberately humiliating job - like cleaner in the airman's mess as discouragement to the others.

I never heard of any such problem in my time, but no-one was shooting at us - unless you count the odd Yemeni or Indon having a crack at us with an old Lee- Enfield .303.

What happens nowadays ? Is there a more sympathetic approach or is the prospect of personal humiliation still a deterent to saying you don't really want to get killed ?

[Navaleye]

I understand the RAF's treatment of one of its own during the Falklands war was far from considerate and understanding, much to the dismay of his RN colleagues.

[Monty77]

Also, you must consider the difference between conscription and volunteers. If you volunteer for it, expect to be shot at.

There are many in the States who join up to take advantage of the excellent training and qualifications that the US offers to folk who have few prospects.

The downside is, you may have to go to Iraq, as a 20 year-old female with an 18 month old kid. It said it very clearly on the packet when you bought into it.

Big hand to all the female scabbers in the UK who took 'discrimination' compensation when they suddenly changed the rules because Brussels said they had to back in the 90s. 'Oh but I was destined for Air Rank.'.

'But you're a nurse!'

'But I "might" have been AOC 1 Gp'

Yeah, right.

Grabbing plonkerkangorillacows. Just detracts from the females who do a very good job, and pisses everybody off who go OOA to cover for the special needs individuals.

Er... AAAArrrrrgggggghhhhhh

[insty66]

Big hand to all the female scabbers in the UK who took 'discrimination' compensation when they suddenly changed the rules because Brussels said they had to back in the 90s. 'Oh but I was destined for Air Rank.'.

'But you're a nurse!'

'But I "might" have been AOC 1 Gp'

Yeah, right.

Grabbing plonkerkangorillacows. Just detracts from the females who do a very good job, and pisses everybody off who go OOA to cover for the special needs individuals.

Er... AAAArrrrrgggggghhhhhh

Are you feeling alright Monty? I thought this thread was about LMF and current attitudes.

I dipped in here as I'm re-reading Len Deightons "bomber" and one of the main characters is grounded due to this issue.

[Severance]

Monty, that's the most spectacular tangent I've had the pleasure of reading in quite some time. I applaud you sir, I'm still wiping the tears from my eyes....ooohhhh my ribs.

I love this board

[Cornish Jack]

Virgo
Just an update - LMF has gone AWOL
When last working for Auntie Betty the terminology was 'Forfeiture of Commanding Officer's Confidence' - now there's a mouthful.

[4fitter]

I witnessed a case during GW1. The pilot was treated appallingly and was removed so that " he wouldn't infect the other aircrew"

[SpotterFC]

Monty,

One of my schoolfriends grew up to be a lawyer (terrible thing to admit I know...) but whilst in training one of her 'holiday' jobs was to go through files at Innsworth reading claimants Fs 6442 to make an assessment of whether they stood a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere with their claims before they were taken on by her employer's chambers. She said it was often quite amusing to compare people's claims of greatness against their (confidential) assessments.

Apologies for the thread creep!

[Monty77]

Once again, I've tried to write an attitude but the reply hasn't appeared. People are replying but due to the absence of my post, nothing makes sense. Moderator : reply?

[Monty77]

Insty66.

Glad I amused you. If you want thread creep, we can talk about the F1 Grand Prix. It's all perception really.

You join a fighting unit to (potentially) fight. If you end up fighting you may (potentially) die.

If you choose to grow a straggly hippy beard and hang around offices waving placards when you have no chance of gainful employment in that building - then I say: the best of British luck to you.

Chuck another box of tea into the harbour, why don't you, 'cause we don't care.

Young men and women are dying to guarantee (bet you couldn't spell that) you're right to spout of.

Bet this post lasts as long as the last one.

[virgo]

Cornish Jack...............OK they changed the name (as they do) but was the treatment the same ? Instant demotion to the ranks and to all intents and purposes, public humiliation - or were they quietly and unobtrusively allowed to leave the service after "suitable psychiatric treatment" ?

I know there were a couple of cases of chaps deliberately putting their aircraft u/s at the time of Suez, but that was a "political" objection rather than LMF and in my opinion, they deserved everthing they got.(You can't have a referendum on who you're sent to fight)

Any lawyers out there got any comments ????

[philrigger]

Spotter FC

One of my schoolfriends grew up to be a lawyer (terrible thing to admit I know...) but whilst in training one of her 'holiday' jobs was to go through files at Innsworth reading claimants Fs 6442 to make an assessment of whether they stood a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere with their claims before they were taken on by her employer's chambers. She said it was often quite amusing to compare people's claims of greatness against their (confidential) assessments.

Are you sure about this ? I cannot believe that Records Office will let outsiders into their files.

'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[QFIhawkman]

Originally Posted by Monty77

Young men and women are dying to guarantee (bet you couldn't spell that) you're right to spout of.

Bet I can spell "OFF" though.

Seriously Monty, your answers do tend to veer off into the ether. This was a thread about moral fibre amongst aircrew and all that. And you go into the realm of nurses etc.
It wasn't (with the greatest of respect) what was asked.

Going back to GW1, and back to the thread, I didn't hear about any pilot suffering from lack of moral fibre. As for the Falklands, current campaigns etc, I couldn't comment.

[insty66]

Get it right!

Monty.
I guarantee I can!
As I understand it to be a subject close to your heart I shall expand.
Cowardice, LMF or FoCOC as it is apparently known is a highly emotive subject. You only have to look at the campaign to have WW1 soldiers names cleared to gain an understanding of what stigma is attached to these labels.
I have served in the RAF for 23 years and have been lucky enough never to have faced direct fire. I like to think that if I had or if I do I could respond in the correct manner and not let down my men/Sqn etc etc. BUT I don't KNOW that I would and can't know until tested in that way. This is true I believe for the vast majority of human beings.
Those that have been under attack have my utmost respect, as not only have they proven that they can "do it," they know what is coming next time and still go and "do it."
It is not at all suprising to me that there are people who find that they can't "do it" even less so that there are people who can't "do it" again. We are all after all only human (pilots included )
So you tootle off and worry about my sense of humour and and let me know when the next F1 race is there's a good chap!

Young men and women are dying to guarantee (bet you couldn't spell that) you're right to spout of.

I think you'll find that it's your right to spout off.

[Kitbag]

Insty 66

Nicely put, couldn't agree more.
I have a great deal of respect to those who have faced those challenges and go back again, and for those who have faced the challenge and can't go back again I wonder if, perhaps, there but for the grace of God go I.

FoCOC is such an emotive subject it would be interesting to hear any (anonymous?) tales

Virgo

As for the referendum on who to fight I recall several long, tortuous and fiery threads here re recent and current conflicts

[HTB]

HawkMan

I know of a GW1 pilot who was sent home on the eve of the rough stuff starting - claimed he was suffering from migraine brought on by excessive consumption of coffee. Dhahran. Don't know how it was explained officiially, but he left the service shortly after to fly civil.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Pardon an intrusion from a civilian... I thought the real imjustice of LMF was in the way it was applied to aircrew who had gone out on missions, some of them many times, but had simply run out of steam before their tour was complete? Obviously I cannot know first hand, but I am told battle fatigue sets in at different times for different people.
Someone who refuses to serve at all may indeed be a coward, as may someone who goes once but never goes out again. Can anyone who has voluntarily gone on 2 or more missions be said to lack morale fibre?

[maxburner]

HTB,

I would have thought that the diagnosis of migraine was enough to have hime grounded and sent home. I doubt LMF entered into it.

[SPIT]

Hi
In one off my previous posts (I cant remember when ) I stated that NCO Aircrew in WW2 were treated differently (harsher) that Commisioned A/C.
Nowerday's with mixed crews like the Nimrod if an NCO menber of the crew went LMF would he be treated any differently that Commissioned members of the same crew who may go LMF ???
(PLEASE EXCUSE ANY SPELLING MISTAKES)

[hobie]

Can anyone who has voluntarily gone on 2 or more missions be said to lack morale fibre?

..... imagine this guys morale fibre during WW2 .....

$$$$ $$$$$$$$$, flew over 1000 missions and was shot down himself sixteen times. ...