Query on Vulcan/Falklands War?
I read "Vulcan 607" which I greatly enjoyed but it got me thinking, dangerous I know, but with all the problems experienced with training Vulcan crews to tank and finding probes, would it have been at all feasible to convert a Victor back to a bomber? No tanking training, probes already fitted and 35 bombs versus 21. Just a thought.
Incidentally, I am at present reading "Razor's Edge: The Unofficial History of the Falklands War" by Hugh Bicheno, and his quite detailed map of the Stanley air defences does not show a Roland missile battery.
Incidentally, I am at present reading "Razor's Edge: The Unofficial History of the Falklands War" by Hugh Bicheno, and his quite detailed map of the Stanley air defences does not show a Roland missile battery.
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The Victor had much of its BombNav system removed. The precision GPI6 had been replaced by the older, simpler GPI 4. The ballistics computer had been removed. The armament electrics had probably been stripped out. The Vicotrs had been greatly reworked by BAE or who ever, including clipping a fair bit off each wing.
The Victor 2 had never been a bomber, only a missile carrier, so it did not have any bomb gear and probably no bombdoors. It did not have the Vulcan Heading Reference System either.
The Vulcan 2 Blue Steel had come with two sets of bombdoors, one for the missile body and one for the free-fall role.
I am sure a Victor crew will be able to confirm this.
The Victor 2 had never been a bomber, only a missile carrier, so it did not have any bomb gear and probably no bombdoors. It did not have the Vulcan Heading Reference System either.
The Vulcan 2 Blue Steel had come with two sets of bombdoors, one for the missile body and one for the free-fall role.
I am sure a Victor crew will be able to confirm this.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Would we have managed to achieve this if we had procured the F-111 or kept TSR-2?
Not to say that, if bought, the TSR-2 or F-111 would not have lead to the eventual phase out of the Vulcan as their main role disappeared, but it wasn´t the plan.
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The Victor 2 had never been a bomber, only a missile carrier, so it did not have any bomb gear and probably no bombdoors. It did not have the Vulcan Heading Reference System either.
The Vulcan 2 Blue Steel had come with two sets of bombdoors, one for the missile body and one for the free-fall role.
I am sure a Victor crew will be able to confirm this.
The Vulcan 2 Blue Steel had come with two sets of bombdoors, one for the missile body and one for the free-fall role.
I am sure a Victor crew will be able to confirm this.
I think you'll find that B2's were quite capable of fulfilling the requirement to drop 35,000lbs of conventional weapons from their bomb bay, and get in and out higher and faster than the Vulcan. The Victors failing in the great scheme of things was Sir Frederick Handley Pages' (the owner of the company) refusal to join up with Hawker Siddely or British Aerospace, he lost a fair sized contract over that including another 30? Victors.
Still the government would never interfere with the free market now would it?
Last edited by Kitbag; 4th Oct 2006 at 11:22. Reason: Couldn't remember Sir Freds first name- must be getting old or something!
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In design terms probably quite true but by the time of the Falklands all the B2s, which had never been free-fall bombers, had been through Hawker Siddley (forgot the name before) and undergone strip and rebuild. By the time of the FI they would have had no bomb doors, no NBS for the reasons stated, and few Nav Radar (Bomber) who would also have been out of practice. That said, a Vulcan Nav Rad could have used the kit instead.
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I agree re converting back from K2 standard, I was trying to point out that the B2 was originally designed as a freefall bomber as Blue Steel was introduced after B2.
Anyway, an awful lot 'what ifs'. Would things have been better if the RN had kept its flat tops, would the Argies have considered invading if (fill in your own favourite theory concerning domestic unrest in Argentina/theoretical or actual oil reserves/UK not taking over responsibilities for the islands from the Spanish...etc)
Anyway, an awful lot 'what ifs'. Would things have been better if the RN had kept its flat tops, would the Argies have considered invading if (fill in your own favourite theory concerning domestic unrest in Argentina/theoretical or actual oil reserves/UK not taking over responsibilities for the islands from the Spanish...etc)
I read Vulcan 607 in the summer and found it a real page turner and "unputdownably exciting" and I took part in BB1 so I knew what had happened!!!
The Victor 2's bomb bay was just a huge fuel tank so it couldn't have been resurrected as a bomber.
I think "the bearded bullshi**er", as Beags calls him,should feel very embarrassed at the revelation that he tried to contact the Vulcan.Everyone I've lent the book to has said what a complete ar*e he was for doing that.
The Victor 2's bomb bay was just a huge fuel tank so it couldn't have been resurrected as a bomber.
I think "the bearded bullshi**er", as Beags calls him,should feel very embarrassed at the revelation that he tried to contact the Vulcan.Everyone I've lent the book to has said what a complete ar*e he was for doing that.
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I wonder if that was actually bullsh**? How much night flying actually took place especially at that time of the war?
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Vulcan v the BUFF
At the Greenham Common airshow some years ago I was having a beer or three with a Yankee tanker crew whilst a Vulcan was performing. It had already been announced by HMG that the aircraft was to be 'retired'.
'Such a pity the British government have decided to break that aircraft up' said one of the cousins. 'They could have sold them to the States. We would have put them through the paint shop, given a racey paint job. Restarted production, sold them all over the world, making money for England and the U.S. Air Force would have had a bomber that really worked.'
Sitting just in front of us was a B-52 crew, shrinking lower in to their seats. I am sure they had not been 'noticed' when the remark was passed.
'Such a pity the British government have decided to break that aircraft up' said one of the cousins. 'They could have sold them to the States. We would have put them through the paint shop, given a racey paint job. Restarted production, sold them all over the world, making money for England and the U.S. Air Force would have had a bomber that really worked.'
Sitting just in front of us was a B-52 crew, shrinking lower in to their seats. I am sure they had not been 'noticed' when the remark was passed.
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And was there a way for Slim Pickens to access the Vulcan bomb bay?
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Sharky Ward is a one man band according to his book.
It is true that the SHAR/GR3 guys could have had a pop at the runway however, they would have had to fly within the SAM & AAA umbrella.
The Flag Commander did not appreciate the usefulness of the SHAR's radar and as a result, he ordered them to be used in a manner which became very airframe & pilot intensive, reducing their availability for mud moving jobs.
I think the main issue in terms of why we used the Vulcan is simple & Sharky Ward did not get it at all. The political message passed from the British government to the Argentine leaders, via the Black Buck missions was one of capability and will to attack the mainland if required.
The message certainly got through & the Argie air defence fleet was deployed in a manner that protected the mainland but offered little cover over the Falklands.
It is true that the SHAR/GR3 guys could have had a pop at the runway however, they would have had to fly within the SAM & AAA umbrella.
The Flag Commander did not appreciate the usefulness of the SHAR's radar and as a result, he ordered them to be used in a manner which became very airframe & pilot intensive, reducing their availability for mud moving jobs.
I think the main issue in terms of why we used the Vulcan is simple & Sharky Ward did not get it at all. The political message passed from the British government to the Argentine leaders, via the Black Buck missions was one of capability and will to attack the mainland if required.
The message certainly got through & the Argie air defence fleet was deployed in a manner that protected the mainland but offered little cover over the Falklands.
Irrespective of the whys, the therefores, the should haves etc etc that continue to surround this sortie nearly 25 years after the event. I, for one who was down there at the time, would like to say the message it gave out within the Task Group was well worth its weight in gold. Political or not I look back on it as a great feat of airmanship and just one of a series of occurrences that contributed to the positive end of the conflict.
Please feel free, however, to continue bickering.
SJ
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Irrespective of the whys, the therefores, the should haves etc etc that continue to surround this sortie nearly 25 years after the event. I, for one who was down there at the time, would like to say the message it gave out within the Task Group was well worth its weight in gold. Political or not I look back on it as a great feat of airmanship and just one of a series of occurrences that contributed to the positive end of the conflict.
Please feel free, however, to continue bickering.
SJ
Please feel free, however, to continue bickering.
SJ
Everyone stuck their necks out to win that war, no doubt about it and I think it made us all very proud to be British.
P.S. Sharky Ward is a tw
t...
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BZ SJ
May I heartily support Strictly Jungly. I joined a surprisingly large group of sailors who gravitated into a T42 ops room during the night just to watch a lonely radar blip appear and track towards East Falkland Island. Please do not under-estimate the value of that sortie at that time, especially to those who were out on picket duty where one can feel somewhat alone.
Suspicion breeds confidence
The Black Buck missions achieved far more than was intended.
Bluntly put:
In terms of eliminating its primary objective - it failed.
In terms of scaring the cr@p out of the enemy and forcing them to remove their ONE trained interceptor sqdn north to protect other assets it worked, even if this was un-intended at the time.
This was all it achieved, but it was more than enough. Yes it contributed a lot to global warming, but with the Mirage 3s up north, the final outcome was made a lot easier because Sharkey Ward and Andy Auld and their teams did not have to fight them (even though the outcome would probably have been the same)
I remember the first raid as being a huge morale booster despite working 20hr days at the time.
A job very well done.
Bluntly put:
In terms of eliminating its primary objective - it failed.
In terms of scaring the cr@p out of the enemy and forcing them to remove their ONE trained interceptor sqdn north to protect other assets it worked, even if this was un-intended at the time.
This was all it achieved, but it was more than enough. Yes it contributed a lot to global warming, but with the Mirage 3s up north, the final outcome was made a lot easier because Sharkey Ward and Andy Auld and their teams did not have to fight them (even though the outcome would probably have been the same)
I remember the first raid as being a huge morale booster despite working 20hr days at the time.
A job very well done.
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I've read Vulcan 607, quite recently, and it explained to me in some clarity [very necessary in my case] as to why the bomb run was at the angle it was, the antiquated equipment, the bomb-racks recovered from a scrap yard. etc It also made it equally clear that one hit on the runway was all that was required, and the effect on the Argentinians was significant.
SASless, you really need to read the book, and if you can't get one I'll be pleased to loan you mine! It'll blow your hairback!
SASless, you really need to read the book, and if you can't get one I'll be pleased to loan you mine! It'll blow your hairback!