Red v Blue - Arrows or Angels
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Red v Blue - Arrows or Angels
Having seen documentries on both and the Reds many times in the flesh, just which team do the professionals think are:-
1/ The most technically proficient
2/ Pleasing to the eye
3/ The best career magnet
Patriotism says the Reds but.....
Intrerested to see the debate develop...
1/ The most technically proficient
2/ Pleasing to the eye
3/ The best career magnet
Patriotism says the Reds but.....
Intrerested to see the debate develop...
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Actually a more interesting question might be whether the Reds/Angels and their ilk worldwide have any relevance to modern air combat and whether their value as a PR tool really outweighs their costs (both financial and in terms of taking pilots from the front line).
I will agree to give up the Reds when the Queen hires Swiss Guards as does the Vatican thank you.
That comes from a Spam Chinook pilot.....who freely admits the Chinook display is tops....at least to me.
That comes from a Spam Chinook pilot.....who freely admits the Chinook display is tops....at least to me.
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The Reds are an astute testemant to proper airmanship of the highest calibre.
Tight, precision flying, with the beautiful accuracy of which only the best can perform
They are a credit to the UK and promote the superiority of British airmanship to other nations, as well as providing a superb recruitment tool for those who wish to join the RAF in whatever capacity.
They literally are our flying advert.
Never heard of the Blue Eagles VVHA
Sure you meant the Blue Angels?
TW
Tight, precision flying, with the beautiful accuracy of which only the best can perform
They are a credit to the UK and promote the superiority of British airmanship to other nations, as well as providing a superb recruitment tool for those who wish to join the RAF in whatever capacity.
They literally are our flying advert.
Never heard of the Blue Eagles VVHA
Sure you meant the Blue Angels?
TW
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The Reds are an astute testemant to proper airmanship of the highest calibre.
Tight, precision flying, with the beautiful accuracy of which only the best can perform
They are a credit to the UK and promote the superiority of British airmanship to other nations
Tight, precision flying, with the beautiful accuracy of which only the best can perform
They are a credit to the UK and promote the superiority of British airmanship to other nations
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The Blue Angels, I believe can be "battle ready" in about 24 hours.
All the aircraft are first production F/A-18.
There is a video floating around on Google Video of the Thunderbirds (the F-16 and not the big green machine) flying. Fantastic
All the aircraft are first production F/A-18.
There is a video floating around on Google Video of the Thunderbirds (the F-16 and not the big green machine) flying. Fantastic
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Rather than use vomit symbols, have you got anything constructive or unconstructive to say about the Reds, or are you just gonna flap in the wind?
TW
The Thunderbirds advertise combat readiness in less than 72 hours....would assume the biggest delay is waiting for the paint to dry.
At least the T-Birds and Blue Angels fly "combat" aircraft and can be used as replacements.
At least the T-Birds and Blue Angels fly "combat" aircraft and can be used as replacements.
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Display teams have nothing to do with combat readiness. It's like national teams in sports. With their performance and appearence, they represent their country airforce among other airforces worlwide. They have nothing to prove to other pilots, although most of them "hate" them for all the publicity and travelling they get.
Having watched almost all european teams, i think the Reds are the second best, just a bit behind the Frecce Tricolori.
As for the americans, after those 2 stupid accidents last year for the Thunderbirds..., Blue Angels get the 1st place.
Having watched almost all european teams, i think the Reds are the second best, just a bit behind the Frecce Tricolori.
As for the americans, after those 2 stupid accidents last year for the Thunderbirds..., Blue Angels get the 1st place.
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Other than the Reds one time, I've only seen the T-Birds and Blues (edited to add) and the Snowbirds, so I'll refrain from adding my .02 cents on who is better, however, vaunted though the 'combat ready' time of each of the US squadrons is, it would have to be a really, really bad day (along the old Russians coming through Fulda Gap days) to switch the jets from demo to combat. Suspect that standard line is to appease the ACLU-type who might bitch about 'a waste of my tax money.'
Likewise, the stickboys (generic term now!) are exceptionally honed aerial demo pilots during their tours, not combat pilots. I don't know for a fact, but I rather heavily suspect that not many of their sorties are geared toward ACT, weapons employment, etc, since it's not their primary flying duty for the tour.
That said, a big
to all who do it! And it is a great piece of recruiting for them to display, otherwise, the bean counters would have killed them off.
Plus, it's just damn cool to hear and see jets doing their thing, regardless of the insignia on the side/wings.
Likewise, the stickboys (generic term now!) are exceptionally honed aerial demo pilots during their tours, not combat pilots. I don't know for a fact, but I rather heavily suspect that not many of their sorties are geared toward ACT, weapons employment, etc, since it's not their primary flying duty for the tour.
That said, a big
to all who do it! And it is a great piece of recruiting for them to display, otherwise, the bean counters would have killed them off.Plus, it's just damn cool to hear and see jets doing their thing, regardless of the insignia on the side/wings.
Last edited by brickhistory; 4th Sep 2006 at 00:09.
The Italians put on a darn good show too....seems each team has their strong points, the Reds for lots of airplanes in a very small space...the T-birds for precision...the Italians for pizazz...and the Blues for a dynamic show.
The best show ever was back when the Blues flew the Phantom....fast, low, loud and BIG!
The best show ever was back when the Blues flew the Phantom....fast, low, loud and BIG!
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are you to say something like that?
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The Reds are NOT combat aircraft (at least not in the RAF), but they ARE the fast-jet trainer. Just as the Red Devils (Parachute Display Team) are Instructors who go on to train the Special Forces after their Display Assignment.
http://www.reddevilsonline.com/
http://www.reddevilsonline.com/
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Its more than time for some fresh thinking re: Red Arrows. Watch the public at air shows and I think you will find they are not that interested. Too much ho-hum. They are no longer the must-wait-for climax of air shows (public usually watch at a distance from the car park).
They are principally for the pilots themselves, and I concede, that's a good reason to keep them going. I just doubt its enough. Certainly, the Reds were a distant second in public appeal when the Vulcan was flying back in the 80s and early 90s.
What evidence is there that youngsters want to become RAF pilots from watching the little trainers of the Red Arrows? Would there not be much more recruiting interest if they were front line jets?....... I do recall the USAF's Thunderbirds went to T-38 trainers for a while in the 70s and early 80s, but the public demanded a return to big, noisy, front line jets and so they switched back to F-16s.
You might not get a nifty, tight show, but with eight GR7s or GR4s you would surely get a much better demonstration of what the RAF was really all about.
They are principally for the pilots themselves, and I concede, that's a good reason to keep them going. I just doubt its enough. Certainly, the Reds were a distant second in public appeal when the Vulcan was flying back in the 80s and early 90s.
What evidence is there that youngsters want to become RAF pilots from watching the little trainers of the Red Arrows? Would there not be much more recruiting interest if they were front line jets?....... I do recall the USAF's Thunderbirds went to T-38 trainers for a while in the 70s and early 80s, but the public demanded a return to big, noisy, front line jets and so they switched back to F-16s.
You might not get a nifty, tight show, but with eight GR7s or GR4s you would surely get a much better demonstration of what the RAF was really all about.
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As for the RAF using front line aircraft, 'tis not my place to comment on that. (Edited to add) But the Snowbirds put on a really, really good show as well. Not bad for a trainer, eh?
Last edited by brickhistory; 4th Sep 2006 at 00:10.
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Re my earlier post - the reason for the is because I get a bit tired of the arrogance that comes through from some people regarding "the superioity of British". Its nice to see all the following comments that are a bit more realisitic, ie. they give due respect to all the teams and all types. The reds are certainly a great team filled with excellent pilots, but to imply that they and in fact all British aircrew are superior to all other nations is just rubbish. I would gladly put the top crews from all major aviation nations up against the British, in fact by virtue of their size I would go so far as to say that nations such as the USA are able to produce crews with capabilities and experiences that make them superior to the British!
is because I get a bit tired of the arrogance that comes through from some people regarding "the superioity of British". Its nice to see all the following comments that are a bit more realisitic, ie. they give due respect to all the teams and all types. The reds are certainly a great team filled with excellent pilots, but to imply that they and in fact all British aircrew are superior to all other nations is just rubbish. I would gladly put the top crews from all major aviation nations up against the British, in fact by virtue of their size I would go so far as to say that nations such as the USA are able to produce crews with capabilities and experiences that make them superior to the British!