Why are only pilots captains
A long time ago, at ISK:
New 1st Pilot taxying Shack into dispersal in middle of night slices wingtip into another aircraft. Says to Nav Capt - who has been looking out other side of ac iaw GASO's - "Now look what you've done!"
(And guess who got the primary blame and bollocking)
New 1st Pilot taxying Shack into dispersal in middle of night slices wingtip into another aircraft. Says to Nav Capt - who has been looking out other side of ac iaw GASO's - "Now look what you've done!"
(And guess who got the primary blame and bollocking)
The Wessex HAS3 could be driven from the back, with 1960's technology: once plugged in at 150' jump height, the range/bearing could be inputted from the back end into the autopilot, with two drivers up the front merely required to press "Transition Down" to a 30' hover. IIRC this was removed from the Sea King HAS1, so the pilots actually had to make the turns as well
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In the FAA the chap in command is now called the "aircraft commander" and he will be the senior officer regardless of what job he does. If the Observer is senior then he is Aircraft Commander.
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To respond to the original post - in fact a good E3 skipper will know plenty about "what is going on" and will be working with his mission specialists closely (primarily the Tactical Director).....While the TD will direct mission execution, the captain will take overall responsibility.
The system relies on a close working relationship between the TD and captain (particularly in an operational environment) but *it works*....I cannot think of a TD on the fleet who would like to see it changed (well one, but he has retired now)...
The system relies on a close working relationship between the TD and captain (particularly in an operational environment) but *it works*....I cannot think of a TD on the fleet who would like to see it changed (well one, but he has retired now)...
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On a trip to Kinloss I was told the story, by a fellow pilot, of the "Captain" of the aircraft who was disciplined for a Mess beat up on Ball Night that he knew nothing about. He had been sat in the back and the pilots had not bothered to tell him what they were doing. (Don't know if it was a Nimrod or Shackleton or if true.)
Thread Starter
doubledolphins
If the incident really happened, IMHO the captain (back end) should not have been a captain and the P1 should not have been a P1.
There was an incident (not on my crew) where the P1 decided to do a beat up of Aberdeen at 0130 after a SAR sortie en route ISK, with a Flt Cdr guesting as second nav, and the other nav as captain. The captain was disciplined and the P1 moved to my crew. On the 1st sortie with me he carried out an unauthorised beat up in poor weather during an authorised PD without even telling the other 2 members of the flight deck crew what he was doing - none of us were impressed. He was then briefed by me, on ic, to return to ISK and land from the first suitable approach. I was hauled off him in the locker room before reporting him to the Sqn Cdr, wherupon he was made P2 to the pilot leader (a big fingered Yorkshireman who smoked a pipe!), who also wanted to dispense summary justice. The staish at the base "we" had just beaten up called the staish at ISK to report the cowboy and his dangerous crew. Fortunately my boss knew about the whole issue and was able to brief the staish on the action he had taken. If the system had been that only pilots had been captains, the "cowboy" would have been in overall command and could have done what he did without anyone to over rule him, probably resulting in the loss of an aircraft and crew. Funnily enough the P1 never made captain despite a tour away and being retreaded. However, he never transgressed again while he was on my crew.
Think he flys for a civvy airline now - hmmm!
If the incident really happened, IMHO the captain (back end) should not have been a captain and the P1 should not have been a P1.
There was an incident (not on my crew) where the P1 decided to do a beat up of Aberdeen at 0130 after a SAR sortie en route ISK, with a Flt Cdr guesting as second nav, and the other nav as captain. The captain was disciplined and the P1 moved to my crew. On the 1st sortie with me he carried out an unauthorised beat up in poor weather during an authorised PD without even telling the other 2 members of the flight deck crew what he was doing - none of us were impressed. He was then briefed by me, on ic, to return to ISK and land from the first suitable approach. I was hauled off him in the locker room before reporting him to the Sqn Cdr, wherupon he was made P2 to the pilot leader (a big fingered Yorkshireman who smoked a pipe!), who also wanted to dispense summary justice. The staish at the base "we" had just beaten up called the staish at ISK to report the cowboy and his dangerous crew. Fortunately my boss knew about the whole issue and was able to brief the staish on the action he had taken. If the system had been that only pilots had been captains, the "cowboy" would have been in overall command and could have done what he did without anyone to over rule him, probably resulting in the loss of an aircraft and crew. Funnily enough the P1 never made captain despite a tour away and being retreaded. However, he never transgressed again while he was on my crew.
Think he flys for a civvy airline now - hmmm!
'Why are only pilots captains?' - well Shadwell answered his own question in his opening post - THEY AREN'T!! So why 3+ more pages?
As for the 'no stck no vote' replies from some of the pilots, that is the sort of arrogant remark I would have expected in the days before we tried to apply CRM. I used to fly with a pilot captain who consulted his crew in a much fairer manner. We all used to get a vote on any issue, and then the captain would cast his Union block vote of 5 million!! This lead to a much happier crew, where we all felt our opinion was valued ......
As for the 'no stck no vote' replies from some of the pilots, that is the sort of arrogant remark I would have expected in the days before we tried to apply CRM. I used to fly with a pilot captain who consulted his crew in a much fairer manner. We all used to get a vote on any issue, and then the captain would cast his Union block vote of 5 million!! This lead to a much happier crew, where we all felt our opinion was valued ......
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Tut Tut!
Shadwell, you really should know better! Especially an old and crusty AEO, sorry WSO, like yourself. Everyone knows you guys are the mission commanders really, and not the aircraft captains in the real piloting sense of the word.
I know you take it very seriously and that you are particularly polished at cod fishing, but don't ever doubt who is actually in control of that nimrod that you've been a passenger in for all those years. Dare I say, walking freight; with access to a dimmer switch (which is probably u/s). Who's coat is that jacket?
Tell us another sea shanty old man, aaaar!
I know you take it very seriously and that you are particularly polished at cod fishing, but don't ever doubt who is actually in control of that nimrod that you've been a passenger in for all those years. Dare I say, walking freight; with access to a dimmer switch (which is probably u/s). Who's coat is that jacket?
Tell us another sea shanty old man, aaaar!
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
So who get's handed the Neglect, Misuse, and Damage chit, when Human Factors (Aircrew Error) results in some serious damage to one of Mrs Windsor's shiniest bits of Aluminium? The Aircraft Captain or the P1 (assuming they are different people)?
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Depends on who was taxying the aircraft at the time of course! It's his fault! (Unless there were any movers involved with a highly mobile atlas!)
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Quoi?
Ok here it is. The captain of an aircraft must be that individual who is best placed to guard the safety of that aircraft? A decent agrgument? So here we go; relate to the single seat model - The pilot is at the centre of the aircraft and as such is the first person to see a caption on the CWP or feel an incongrous malfunction in the aeroplane. As such, despite the the possible interference of anyone on the ground or in another aircraft who may be on hand to help or offer advice, the dude in the cockpit is the man who's decisions will be judged, analysed and praised or scorned.
The point is, no matter how many people sit in/on an aircraft, the dude with the stick is almost always the shortest path from problem to solution as he has not only the controls but also the sole responsibility of looking after the aeroplane, a skill he has been learning since day one of flying training.
Put simply, it's all well and good to try and justify how well crewpeople can make captains but if you don't have the stick in your hand and the CWP at your side then you are simply going to lengthen the process by which your crew will deal with problems, this overcomplication is almost an offence in aviation. The shorter the command chain, the better - this involves no-one telling the pilot what to do, only advising him as to the best course of action since he and his co-pilot alone possess the relevant skills to deal with the handling of the aircraft, as tought by a FTS which, if nothing else is designed to make aircraft captains.
Any suggestion that anyone other than a pilot should be captain is simply overcomplicating the process of managing an aircraft or insecure about how his position or is viewed.
It's much easier when there's no-one around to bother your little brain
Wings.
The point is, no matter how many people sit in/on an aircraft, the dude with the stick is almost always the shortest path from problem to solution as he has not only the controls but also the sole responsibility of looking after the aeroplane, a skill he has been learning since day one of flying training.
Put simply, it's all well and good to try and justify how well crewpeople can make captains but if you don't have the stick in your hand and the CWP at your side then you are simply going to lengthen the process by which your crew will deal with problems, this overcomplication is almost an offence in aviation. The shorter the command chain, the better - this involves no-one telling the pilot what to do, only advising him as to the best course of action since he and his co-pilot alone possess the relevant skills to deal with the handling of the aircraft, as tought by a FTS which, if nothing else is designed to make aircraft captains.
Any suggestion that anyone other than a pilot should be captain is simply overcomplicating the process of managing an aircraft or insecure about how his position or is viewed.
It's much easier when there's no-one around to bother your little brain
Wings.
Thread Starter
Are all pilots "he"
So wingtoosmall thinks all pilots are "he". Is this sexist? I never thought I would be the one to be PC. I only have experience (in the flying sense) of one lady pilot and she was fantastic.
To balance the comments of my last post, I have nothing but respect for all but one of the P1s that I have flown with. Hopefully they would feel the same way about flying with me. I cant think of an occasion when I interfered with their pilot or nav type decisions. When we had an emergency, clearly the appropriate people take the lead, be it the pilots, Eng navs or the R5, with the rest of us supporting them in any way possible. In over 1000 hours as captain, I probably only had to "interfere" once and that was to resolve a dispute. In my belief flying a multi crew aircraft is a team sport and just because whoever is captain does not give them a monopoly on knowledge. The prima donas (and I am sure we have all met a few) are probably the worst and least suited to captaincy. As aircrew we are all trained to do our respective jobs to a high standard and it is my belief that without a mix of skills required of a crew, the aircraft could not complete the mission successfully.
It was a dreary bank holiday Monday when I put this thread on the ether, and I did not expect to get more than a couple of responses. However, what do I know!
Oops here comes my nurse (not Kev) to dress me..........
Shadwell
To balance the comments of my last post, I have nothing but respect for all but one of the P1s that I have flown with. Hopefully they would feel the same way about flying with me. I cant think of an occasion when I interfered with their pilot or nav type decisions. When we had an emergency, clearly the appropriate people take the lead, be it the pilots, Eng navs or the R5, with the rest of us supporting them in any way possible. In over 1000 hours as captain, I probably only had to "interfere" once and that was to resolve a dispute. In my belief flying a multi crew aircraft is a team sport and just because whoever is captain does not give them a monopoly on knowledge. The prima donas (and I am sure we have all met a few) are probably the worst and least suited to captaincy. As aircrew we are all trained to do our respective jobs to a high standard and it is my belief that without a mix of skills required of a crew, the aircraft could not complete the mission successfully.
It was a dreary bank holiday Monday when I put this thread on the ether, and I did not expect to get more than a couple of responses. However, what do I know!
Oops here comes my nurse (not Kev) to dress me..........
Shadwell
