Dual Citizenship....and dying for your country??
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Dual Citizenship....and dying for your country??
Big news in Australia that the first 'Australian' dies in the conflict between Israel and Lebanon.
The gentleman concerned had returned to serve/fight for Israel finishing his return of service and as it turns out died for the country he chose to be 'loyal' to.
Now my first question is why? and all the following questions are why?
In the first press release it notes that he wanted to 'know what it would be like in the Army'.
Well son, why not have joined the RAR and have found out!!!???
The gentleman concerned had returned to serve/fight for Israel finishing his return of service and as it turns out died for the country he chose to be 'loyal' to.
Now my first question is why? and all the following questions are why?
In the first press release it notes that he wanted to 'know what it would be like in the Army'.
Well son, why not have joined the RAR and have found out!!!???
He lived in Israel until 12 years old...and returned there knowing he would have to serve in the military and in all probability fight for his country.
Such a tragedy to lose such a fine young man in this way.
Such a tragedy to lose such a fine young man in this way.
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SASless
From your post '...fight for his country..' now my concern, his country of 'citizenship' is now Australia if I am not mistaken. Why should he go back to do National Service in a now foreign land and ultimately die for it??
Would he have done the same for Australia????
These questions need to be asked if we are to fully understand immigration and multiculturalism in the modern Austalian Culture.
Would he have done the same for Australia????
These questions need to be asked if we are to fully understand immigration and multiculturalism in the modern Austalian Culture.
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I guess it all depends on your point of view, snapshot.
After all, we were constantly told last week that there were up to 25 000 "Lebanese Australians" in Lebanon at the start of the crisis. A percentage were tourists, and some were visiting family, but there were plenty who had returned "home" to live permanently - although whilst retaining their Aussie citizenship and passport of course.
As soon as there was trouble, plenty of these people started screaming for the Australian Government to come and evacuate them, and complained loudly when it wasn't fast enough for their liking. Anyone who dared to question whether it should be the Australian taxpayer's responsibility to pony up for the evacuation of permanent residents of another country was branded with the usual "racist" and "anti-multicultural" tags.
For what it's worth, I find dual citizenship of any sort (except perhaps New Zealander / Australian) to be impossibly conflicted. In my opinion, once you take Australian citizenship, you should have to renounce the citizenship of any other country. I don't care where you or your parents were born, if you want to be Australian, that's where your allegiance must lie henceforth. I've got no truck with Australians who want to go overseas to fight for anyone else - whether we're talking about Serbian Australians going "home" to fight the Bosnians, Israeli Australians going off to fight the Arabs or anything else. And don't even start me on traitors like David Hicks who have no other citizenship (at least at that stage) but who head off and sign up for non-state terrorist groups like Lashkar e-Toiba and Al-Qaeda.
All of this is in no way to suggest that migrants have to forget where they came from. The multicultural element in this country (and that's truly what it is, not a plurality of monocultures like in many European countries) is what makes it such a fantastic place. Preservation of those cultures is hugely important - and I don't even really mind if those of Italian descent feel they have to support the Azzurri against the Socceroos.
But once you take out the papers of citizenship, this country (and no other) has claim on your formal allegiance - and you have the right to expect that allegiance to be returned in the form of help when you need it. But that mutual obligation removes your right to go and fight for someone else. If you feel strongly enough, then go for it - but take out their citizenship instead of mine when you do it.
After all, we were constantly told last week that there were up to 25 000 "Lebanese Australians" in Lebanon at the start of the crisis. A percentage were tourists, and some were visiting family, but there were plenty who had returned "home" to live permanently - although whilst retaining their Aussie citizenship and passport of course.
As soon as there was trouble, plenty of these people started screaming for the Australian Government to come and evacuate them, and complained loudly when it wasn't fast enough for their liking. Anyone who dared to question whether it should be the Australian taxpayer's responsibility to pony up for the evacuation of permanent residents of another country was branded with the usual "racist" and "anti-multicultural" tags.
For what it's worth, I find dual citizenship of any sort (except perhaps New Zealander / Australian) to be impossibly conflicted. In my opinion, once you take Australian citizenship, you should have to renounce the citizenship of any other country. I don't care where you or your parents were born, if you want to be Australian, that's where your allegiance must lie henceforth. I've got no truck with Australians who want to go overseas to fight for anyone else - whether we're talking about Serbian Australians going "home" to fight the Bosnians, Israeli Australians going off to fight the Arabs or anything else. And don't even start me on traitors like David Hicks who have no other citizenship (at least at that stage) but who head off and sign up for non-state terrorist groups like Lashkar e-Toiba and Al-Qaeda.
All of this is in no way to suggest that migrants have to forget where they came from. The multicultural element in this country (and that's truly what it is, not a plurality of monocultures like in many European countries) is what makes it such a fantastic place. Preservation of those cultures is hugely important - and I don't even really mind if those of Italian descent feel they have to support the Azzurri against the Socceroos.
But once you take out the papers of citizenship, this country (and no other) has claim on your formal allegiance - and you have the right to expect that allegiance to be returned in the form of help when you need it. But that mutual obligation removes your right to go and fight for someone else. If you feel strongly enough, then go for it - but take out their citizenship instead of mine when you do it.
country of citizenship v country of service.
Some of you gentlemen would do well to read up on some of the history of your current/former service, the RAAF. Many Commonwealth servicemen, some of whom were pilots, and some of which were Australian, fought for a country other than their birth and citizenship. Many served in the RAF, were loyal warriors and later in the war transferred to the RAAF. In your little world, these fine aviators would have been prevented from serving in the defence of a country they were citizens of.
To suggest that a young Australian/Israeli lad who lost his life in defence of a country and culture he believed in, by the way he did not contravene any Australian laws, would not have helped out Australia and should be banned from returning to live by removing his citizenship, is very myopic. Do not forget that his mother (I assume you gentlemen don't deny having one of those) and sister are law abiding Australian citizens and have to deal with enough pain without your input.
By your definitions there are many 'Mercenaries' serving in the ADF. There are many that hold dual citizenship of many different countries and serve our country so well, you now question their loyalty by suggesting that they should turn in their citizenships of other countries they love, yet some of them have faced bigger risks in serving Australia and have bigger nads than you do. So what do we do?
Here is a suggestion. If you do not like the laws of this wonderful country Australia, leave!
To suggest that a young Australian/Israeli lad who lost his life in defence of a country and culture he believed in, by the way he did not contravene any Australian laws, would not have helped out Australia and should be banned from returning to live by removing his citizenship, is very myopic. Do not forget that his mother (I assume you gentlemen don't deny having one of those) and sister are law abiding Australian citizens and have to deal with enough pain without your input.
By your definitions there are many 'Mercenaries' serving in the ADF. There are many that hold dual citizenship of many different countries and serve our country so well, you now question their loyalty by suggesting that they should turn in their citizenships of other countries they love, yet some of them have faced bigger risks in serving Australia and have bigger nads than you do. So what do we do?
Here is a suggestion. If you do not like the laws of this wonderful country Australia, leave!
Maybe the RAR didn't accept him.
Maybe he wanted to fight in real combat, as opposed to digging pits on the Outback during exercises.
Maybe he felt strongly about defending Israel.
I say good on him.
Maybe he wanted to fight in real combat, as opposed to digging pits on the Outback during exercises.
Maybe he felt strongly about defending Israel.
I say good on him.
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Reminds me of a Blackadder sketch but slightly modified.
Former Isreali Aussie that returns to fight for the Jexish cause.....brave, fine, upstanding, young man RIP!!!!
Muslim Aussie that goes to fight in Afganistan amongst people of the same religon.....dirty, underhand, scum, Rot in Hell!!!!
Don't get me wrong, it was only a tongue in cheek comment. I think they are both very stupid acts.
Former Isreali Aussie that returns to fight for the Jexish cause.....brave, fine, upstanding, young man RIP!!!!
Muslim Aussie that goes to fight in Afganistan amongst people of the same religon.....dirty, underhand, scum, Rot in Hell!!!!
Don't get me wrong, it was only a tongue in cheek comment. I think they are both very stupid acts.
Perhaps people shouldn't be given alternative citizenship until after they have fullfilled their obligations to their native lands!
Then it may alleiviate some of the issues relating to foreigners dying whilst fighting in another countries conflicts,,,,oooops,, quite a broad statement given the current global activity of various countries militaries!!
Then it may alleiviate some of the issues relating to foreigners dying whilst fighting in another countries conflicts,,,,oooops,, quite a broad statement given the current global activity of various countries militaries!!
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In some cases, dual-nationality does not remove the obligation for national service in one or other of the countries, particularly where the country of origin requires a mandatory period of national service. Presumably not both at the same time, though. I can think of Israel, Greece (Cypriot) and Germany for starters as examples of people I have known where this has happened. I suspect that legally only having asylum status would prevent this? I am thinking particularly of the Iraqis who fled the Ba'ath regime between GW1 and GW2.
One question though, if you were coming to the end of mandatory enagement and your unit was deploying, would you volunteer to return to fight alongside your mates or disappear back to a safer country? It's a thorny one. Moreover, I suspect the statement by Fox3 may have been a media oversimplification:
It may well be the case that the right to hold an Israeli passport (and of the Israelis I have known outside of that country, none were willing to give it up the entitlement) may well be dependent on certain criteria being fulfilled including National Service.
One question though, if you were coming to the end of mandatory enagement and your unit was deploying, would you volunteer to return to fight alongside your mates or disappear back to a safer country? It's a thorny one. Moreover, I suspect the statement by Fox3 may have been a media oversimplification:
In the first press release it notes that he wanted to 'know what it would be like in the Army'.
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Dual citizenry is ok I suppose and you could argue that living in country (A) and fighting for country (I) erm, I mean (B) is ok, but what happens when countries (A) and (B) fight each other?
I remember seeing an interview on the TV during the Falklands with some English bloke wot had emigrated to Argentina.
These smileys might be appropriate:
and who knows, maybe even this one:
I remember seeing an interview on the TV during the Falklands with some English bloke wot had emigrated to Argentina.
These smileys might be appropriate:
and who knows, maybe even this one:
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I think swingwing's point is valid. Dual nationality passport holders slagging off the Aus govt for not moving quick enough for their liking is stretching it a bit.
Why aren't they slagging off the Lebanese govt/army for not stopping Hezbollah launching rockets at Israel? That's what started the totally over the top Israeli reaction.
Why aren't they slagging off the Lebanese govt/army for not stopping Hezbollah launching rockets at Israel? That's what started the totally over the top Israeli reaction.
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I like Swingwing's post. We are fortunate to always have a choice in what we do and where we do it, but in my mind if you adopt a country and it adopts you, then the least you can do is stand up and be counted in your new country by taking its citizenship. I believe there was a bit of a fuss in Australia a few years ago over the thousands of Brits who have lived in Australia for ten, twenty, thirty years or so, and still clung to their British Passports.Absolute cads!
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When I was a USMC Sgt in charge of the FLIR/Laser intermediate level Avionics repair shop in MCAS El Toro, CA in 1985-1989, one of my best men was one of those despised "Mercenaries"!
CPL Bray (known as "Blackie", of course) was not a US citizen (although his older brother was). This was made clear in Dec. 1986, when he tried to go visit his parents for Christmas leave and his request was denied.
His statement to the CO of Headquarters & Maintenance Squadron 13 was:
"I don't care if Éire (Republic of Ireland) IS on the DOD's "Restricted Travel" List, if you won't let me go home to see my parents, then I'll have to have MY Ambassador talk to YOUR President on the subject! Now, can we solve this here, like fellow Marines should?"
He got to go home, but had to "recieve" a "security briefing" from G-2 (Intelligence) first. The spook Major said "I learned more about the current situation in Ireland from that CPL than in my last official update"!
He served with honor, and went where he was sent, so we all had nothing but respect for him!
CPL Bray (known as "Blackie", of course) was not a US citizen (although his older brother was). This was made clear in Dec. 1986, when he tried to go visit his parents for Christmas leave and his request was denied.
His statement to the CO of Headquarters & Maintenance Squadron 13 was:
"I don't care if Éire (Republic of Ireland) IS on the DOD's "Restricted Travel" List, if you won't let me go home to see my parents, then I'll have to have MY Ambassador talk to YOUR President on the subject! Now, can we solve this here, like fellow Marines should?"
He got to go home, but had to "recieve" a "security briefing" from G-2 (Intelligence) first. The spook Major said "I learned more about the current situation in Ireland from that CPL than in my last official update"!
He served with honor, and went where he was sent, so we all had nothing but respect for him!
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Monty and Samual...
Yep, with you all the way. The whole thing needs to be tidyied up and people have to decide where, how and who they want to swear their allegances too.
This pussyfooting around and trying to get the best of both worlds has to stop.
This pussyfooting around and trying to get the best of both worlds has to stop.
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Permit citizenship of only one country. Should you wish to get into some one elses punch up then you are a mercenary, and nothing wrong with that. Just hope you pick the winning side. Seemed to work OK in Spain in the 30's and plenty of US boys went across the border into Canada and ended up in the RAF prior to the US getting into the war.
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I find myself firmly on the side of those who are uneasy about dual citizenship, but I fear it is far too hot a potato for either of the main political parties to grasp - unless (very highly unlikely, verging on the impossible) it was done in a bi-partisan manner, with both parties supporting it.
*****
Doors open, your argument re Commonwealth servicemen serving in the RAF and other British services in WW2 might appear to be a valid one in the current debate to someone with no knowledge of history, but in fact it is spurious. Until 1949, anyone born in Australia was an "Australian citizen and British subject". Even if Australia was no longer officially a colony of "the Old Country" in the 1940's, the attitude of many if not most Australians (and New Zealanders, Rhodesians and the citizens of many other ex-colonies of Britain) was still firmly rooted in "the Old Country", (or "Home" as my Grandparents and all my Great Aunts and Uncles referred to a country they had never once visited)
*****
Doors open, your argument re Commonwealth servicemen serving in the RAF and other British services in WW2 might appear to be a valid one in the current debate to someone with no knowledge of history, but in fact it is spurious. Until 1949, anyone born in Australia was an "Australian citizen and British subject". Even if Australia was no longer officially a colony of "the Old Country" in the 1940's, the attitude of many if not most Australians (and New Zealanders, Rhodesians and the citizens of many other ex-colonies of Britain) was still firmly rooted in "the Old Country", (or "Home" as my Grandparents and all my Great Aunts and Uncles referred to a country they had never once visited)
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I'm a french military pilot, holding a dual citizenship: I' also lebanese.
I choose to serve in France, wich is the country where I spent the biggest part of my life. France would need me right now, I'd be here.
But today, it's y other country that is under attack, members of my familly lost their houses, shops, and are forced to hide in the mountains. They never acted the wrong way, and my grannie is a saint to me.
Question: what should I feel regarding this, and where is my place ?
This country also need me, more than France by now. This is the kind of feeling that guy (wich was virtually my enemy) must have felt.
For swinging, keep in mind that Lebanese are not crying for a personal help from Australia. Some of them, married some australian girls, and had some australian kids. That's why, even if they returned to Lebanon, they are asking for help, to protect their wifes and kids... but maybe you can't get it.
I choose to serve in France, wich is the country where I spent the biggest part of my life. France would need me right now, I'd be here.
But today, it's y other country that is under attack, members of my familly lost their houses, shops, and are forced to hide in the mountains. They never acted the wrong way, and my grannie is a saint to me.
Question: what should I feel regarding this, and where is my place ?
This country also need me, more than France by now. This is the kind of feeling that guy (wich was virtually my enemy) must have felt.
For swinging, keep in mind that Lebanese are not crying for a personal help from Australia. Some of them, married some australian girls, and had some australian kids. That's why, even if they returned to Lebanon, they are asking for help, to protect their wifes and kids... but maybe you can't get it.