How Many Mates Have You Seen Chopped??
oldbeefer, you are probably 100% correct. I found the same when we started getting non-BFTS pilots into the VC10 OCU. Many of them really struggled - not through any particular lack of ability, more through inexperience and through having a lower level of training than their predecessors had received.
Although I didn't personally find any lack of motivation.
It seems that only future pointy-heads have the benefit of BFTS training these days.....
The early 1970s era core JP3/5 basic course had a lot to recommend it, as you say.
Although I didn't personally find any lack of motivation.
It seems that only future pointy-heads have the benefit of BFTS training these days.....
The early 1970s era core JP3/5 basic course had a lot to recommend it, as you say.
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Maybe someone who's been through flying training in the past 20 years might like to comment on the above situation
I would normally watch this sort of thread from the sidelines, but two of your commments, Pontious, really grated.
Firstly,
another one bites the dust
Secondly,
What we have found is that it may be bad at the time when you are chopped but later the pressure comes off and the stude is actually much happier.
You may think I'm bitter and twisted about this issue. You're right, and you would be too.
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At one time in the 70s, the fast jet crossover mill was populated by a bunch of QFIs who seemed hell-bent on making heavy guys lives a misery - the chop rate was more about guys who had had enough psychologically than their ability to fly. A friend of mine got a FJ crossover slot, but after 3 months of torture voluntarily withdrew from training and went back to heavies.
The stories he told [allowing for self pity, etc] were horrendous. Tales of derision, bullying and pressure, rather than teaching.
It seemed at the time as though you had to be the self-made Top Gun to stand any chance. There was no room for the guy who needed another few hours to make it all click and come together.
The stories he told [allowing for self pity, etc] were horrendous. Tales of derision, bullying and pressure, rather than teaching.
It seemed at the time as though you had to be the self-made Top Gun to stand any chance. There was no room for the guy who needed another few hours to make it all click and come together.
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I have extensive experience of the rotary training system from both sides and I would say that the chop rate on our side of things is pretty low. Generally, it's actually pretty hard to get someone chopped these days, and if the evidence is not all there, it'll just get chucked out at the review stage.
Students (or trainees in the new, caring sharing PC RAF) really are given every chance to pass the course, even if it doesn't feel like it from the studes point of view. With the shrinking resources and pot of hours available, the training burden is pushed further and further towards the front line, but even now it is a rarity to see someone chopped post AFT, let alone post OCU.
The reality is that there has to be a minimum standard and if one doesn't reach it, then there is only one outcome that is fair for both the RAF, the individual and anybody in their ac (or the school in the Harrier and Typhoo's case).
Weeman, I know you're bitter and the Personnel Mismanagement Agency have shafted you, but you had a better crack of the whip than some. It says a lot for you that you got as far as you did. In my experience likeable people tend to get cut a little more slack than the other boring grey men. I would rather an average pilot on the sqn who was good in the bar and on Det, than a Stick Jedi who was an absolute tosspot. I know it shouldn't matter, but as long as flying training is carried out by humans and not robots, there will always be a degree of latitude like this.
All the "try harder" guff is exactly that. No student tries anything less than 100%. And if they do, they deserve to be chopped anyway.
For the record, the hit rate at Shawditz tends to be about 2 per course on SERW and 1 per course on MEARW (2 out of 16, then 1 out of 10-12)...
Students (or trainees in the new, caring sharing PC RAF) really are given every chance to pass the course, even if it doesn't feel like it from the studes point of view. With the shrinking resources and pot of hours available, the training burden is pushed further and further towards the front line, but even now it is a rarity to see someone chopped post AFT, let alone post OCU.
The reality is that there has to be a minimum standard and if one doesn't reach it, then there is only one outcome that is fair for both the RAF, the individual and anybody in their ac (or the school in the Harrier and Typhoo's case).
Weeman, I know you're bitter and the Personnel Mismanagement Agency have shafted you, but you had a better crack of the whip than some. It says a lot for you that you got as far as you did. In my experience likeable people tend to get cut a little more slack than the other boring grey men. I would rather an average pilot on the sqn who was good in the bar and on Det, than a Stick Jedi who was an absolute tosspot. I know it shouldn't matter, but as long as flying training is carried out by humans and not robots, there will always be a degree of latitude like this.
All the "try harder" guff is exactly that. No student tries anything less than 100%. And if they do, they deserve to be chopped anyway.
For the record, the hit rate at Shawditz tends to be about 2 per course on SERW and 1 per course on MEARW (2 out of 16, then 1 out of 10-12)...
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I left Shawbury 3 years ago so does that count as recent? As a basic rotary instructor on gazelle, an OCU instructor on puma and a CFS instructor on squirrel, I always saw a student failure as a potential failure on my part. We used to go to great extremes to get people through at the required standard. A post mortem was always carried out on chopee's to see if we could have done better. Usually, the question asked was: 'would I trust this person to fly me and my family?' Believe me when I say, if you got chopped you were not good enough for the military front line. I do not regret a single chop........
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As a student on course, how do you know how well your mates are doing?
Me: "It was a bloody nightmare I had no idea what I was doing and kept worrying about hitting all the other aircraft!"
Him: "It was worse for me, I was lost the whole time I was airborne"
In pops one of the other guys, when asked he said "No snags, piece of piss, I don't know what you guys are on about."
About a week later the guy that was 'doing so well' was chopped. We thought the game was up because if he was doing so well we had no chance. It didn't quite turn out like that. Later I realised that the guys that thought they were not doing so well just had the extra capacity to notice what was really going on. The guys that thought it was a breeze and got chopped were maxed out.
I think the best advice I would give to the guys going through the process is to try and chill a little. Easy to say but I put almost insurmountable pressure on myself and felt like I scraped everything until I was operational. Then I did things that were far harder, with comfort, because I actually had a little belief. Almost all the pressure was self induced and although we had a lot of laughs outside the aircraft, it was all just a bit too serious in the jet. As an instructor in years to come I always tried to take the pressure off to see how the guy could really perform and try and spark a little bit of self confidence.
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I concur with weeman's sentiments. In my instance, the late 80's appeared to be a quotas game. All 18 studes on my BFT (Long) course went solo, but we knew from a sneaky look at a signal we 'found' in the admin box when bussing across to Elvington for circuit consol that only 5 places were booked at AMTC ahead of Group 1 Phase 1. I was about the fourth or fifth to go, flying my chop ride with the CFI who told me "well you've passed the ride, but I'm going to chop you anyway". Being an engineer when they were thin on the ground and at a time when they had navs comoing out of their ears, staying commissioned aircrew wasn't an option. (With hindsight, I wish I had gone ALM / Winchman). Nonetheless, all the talk about "the stude being happier after the pressure comes off" still sounds hollow when flying is all you ever wanted to do. I guess them's the breaks though - good luck to all those in the system now 
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Originally Posted by mrwickets
at a time when they had navs comoing out of their ears, :
IMHO recruiting was lean and anyone with any pilot apptitude was sent pilot first and cascaded down thereafter.
One problem was that the pilot cascade, below FJ, was full, so most pilots were not re-streamed multi but bounced across. I have no idea how many did not get a hack at nav either. I guess maybe a few.
I note the comments about personality and trying to get a stude through. The personality issue was true to some extent at Nav School but the system was not usually one on one (except for remedial work). Biting the dust was a damn sight better than a 4th safety altitude bust in bad weather.
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Weeman, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I was chopped around the end of JEFTS in 2000 and it still stings to this day because I loved it so much. However, I count myself fortunate in a couple of ways: the first being that I won't get the chance to stoof in and possibly take at least one mate with me, the second being that it happened very very early, and, having just seen a few mates chopped from the (proper) Merlin and Lynx courses in the vinegar strokes, wasn't literally in sight of the end. I had another mate whom many of your may know who got well through the GR4 OCU, got chopped, and retrained Nav. As far as I know he's done well but it must have been appalling for him (alright Phats?).
After much holding and several delays, one of my ex-UAS studes got as far as the Tornado OCU before being chopped.
Got to hear he'd been restreamed ME, so persuaded our Flt Cdr Trg to get the Boss to put in a word at Binnsworth to send him our way - I convinced the Flt Cdr he was a catch we would be lucky to get...and he trusted my judgement.
Binnsworth agreed - and he came to us after finishing on the Wetdream.
Did well as a co, then did well as a captain. I did his B-cat check (a horrid black, wet night!); the minute we shut down the Stn Cdr told him he'd been promoted and handed him his Sqn Ldr braid.
Then became a Flt Cdr on the other sqn........now I hear he's going back to the premier tanker squadron as the next Boss!
Sometimes it really is good to be chopped!
Got to hear he'd been restreamed ME, so persuaded our Flt Cdr Trg to get the Boss to put in a word at Binnsworth to send him our way - I convinced the Flt Cdr he was a catch we would be lucky to get...and he trusted my judgement.
Binnsworth agreed - and he came to us after finishing on the Wetdream.
Did well as a co, then did well as a captain. I did his B-cat check (a horrid black, wet night!); the minute we shut down the Stn Cdr told him he'd been promoted and handed him his Sqn Ldr braid.
Then became a Flt Cdr on the other sqn........now I hear he's going back to the premier tanker squadron as the next Boss!
Sometimes it really is good to be chopped!
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Okay, I would like to add some input to this thread too.
I was chopped on my wings preride at Shawbury about 18 months ago so it won’t be too difficult for those in the know to identify me.
Possibly. However, there are many more factors than this to consider. As an example I had something like 45 instructors in my flying training whereas course mates had 4 or 5 per course (20 or so total) and usually flew with their primary.
I’m certain that consistently flying with the same instructor has a beneficial effect on the student’s progress as the instructor can more easily identify and overcome any weaknesses.
Flying with multiple instructors is useful in developing flexibility and seeing different people views and techniques but only up to a certain point after which the lack of continuity has a negative effect.
I was offered the same despite the fact that others who were chopped months before me were offered the fabled multis slot.
The only reasons I could honestly come up with for this were that I was the ‘course t**t’ or that there were no multis slots available.
I hope I wasn’t the ‘course t**t’ (otherwise why offer me a ground branch… oh, maybe answered my own question there.
) so this leads me to believe that I was not offered multis based on quotas.
I agree with this fully. I felt at times that the multitude of reports were written in such a way as to justify my withdrawal from training rather than the actual events.
I know that as an officer I should have refuted this and so on but in practice this is very difficult for a young Flying Officer when faced with hugely experienced senior officers.
When I was initially chopped I was full of hope and adamant that I would continue appealing and do whatever it took to get my multis slot. However as the whole process went on (Taking about 8 months) I was slowly worn down and became more and more apathetic and disillusioned. In the end I just wanted to know what was happening with my future either way. It’s not a nice feeling to have your entire future uncertainly hanging in the balance and having to explain the whole situation to everyone you meet for 8 months.
I believe my course was 4 SERW (of 18 or so) and 4 on MEARW (Of about 12).
As mentioned above a number of those chopped early on were given multis slots yet the final two to get chopped were offered a ground branch or the door.
Perhaps that says something about the multis system filling up as the year went on or maybe it shows that people who get further have ‘more rope to hang themselves’ with?
Being chopped has given me a whole load of new opportunities and probably saved me from being stuck in the dessert for 11 months of the year (from what I’m led to believe by pprune) but it’s still pretty painful.
I don’t like to tell people I was chopped because it makes them think ‘failure’. I don’t feel like that’s fair – I truly believe I should have got multis (For the record my EFT preference was for multis and I was recommended to be streamed multis) and that I was a victim of the system.
When I try to explain the story to people 100% of them agree that I was shafted and can’t understand why the RAF would waste their money and my time (Over 3 years of the ‘prime of my youth’) on getting me so far through training and then dropping me.
But then they would think that, they’ve just heard the bitter young failure’s side of the story…
I was chopped on my wings preride at Shawbury about 18 months ago so it won’t be too difficult for those in the know to identify me.
Originally Posted by oldbeefer
So, if you fail, it's 'cos you aint good enough!
I’m certain that consistently flying with the same instructor has a beneficial effect on the student’s progress as the instructor can more easily identify and overcome any weaknesses.
Flying with multiple instructors is useful in developing flexibility and seeing different people views and techniques but only up to a certain point after which the lack of continuity has a negative effect.
Originally Posted by WeeMan18
Then was offered ground branch or leave (no multi crossover) by the 'admin centre of excellence' outside Gloucester
The only reasons I could honestly come up with for this were that I was the ‘course t**t’ or that there were no multis slots available.
I hope I wasn’t the ‘course t**t’ (otherwise why offer me a ground branch… oh, maybe answered my own question there.
) so this leads me to believe that I was not offered multis based on quotas.
Originally Posted by WeeMan18
Some old and bold instructors may go on about student apathy and motivation but spare a thought for those who give their all and then some more, and eventually find that their lifelong dream, the single thing they have worked harder towards than anything else, is snatched out of their grasp. Approximately 18 months after the event, I do not pass through a single day without feeling extremely sad and angry about the whole saga and the deplorable treatment by PMA in the aftermath.
I know that as an officer I should have refuted this and so on but in practice this is very difficult for a young Flying Officer when faced with hugely experienced senior officers.
When I was initially chopped I was full of hope and adamant that I would continue appealing and do whatever it took to get my multis slot. However as the whole process went on (Taking about 8 months) I was slowly worn down and became more and more apathetic and disillusioned. In the end I just wanted to know what was happening with my future either way. It’s not a nice feeling to have your entire future uncertainly hanging in the balance and having to explain the whole situation to everyone you meet for 8 months.
Originally Posted by ProfessionalStudent
For the record, the hit rate at Shawditz tends to be about 2 per course on SERW and 1 per course on MEARW (2 out of 16, then 1 out of 10-12)...
As mentioned above a number of those chopped early on were given multis slots yet the final two to get chopped were offered a ground branch or the door.
Perhaps that says something about the multis system filling up as the year went on or maybe it shows that people who get further have ‘more rope to hang themselves’ with?
Originally Posted by bad livin'
Weeman, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I was chopped around the end of JEFTS in 2000 and it still stings to this day because I loved it so much. However, I count myself fortunate in a couple of ways.
I don’t like to tell people I was chopped because it makes them think ‘failure’. I don’t feel like that’s fair – I truly believe I should have got multis (For the record my EFT preference was for multis and I was recommended to be streamed multis) and that I was a victim of the system.
When I try to explain the story to people 100% of them agree that I was shafted and can’t understand why the RAF would waste their money and my time (Over 3 years of the ‘prime of my youth’) on getting me so far through training and then dropping me.
But then they would think that, they’ve just heard the bitter young failure’s side of the story…
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'Anyone else getting a bit frustrated with seeing mates get chopped from flying training who could have made it if the system had shown a little bit more understanding to them? '
Felt I had to respond to this. It is unfortunate when people are 'chopped'. However, in my experience, these decisions are never taken lightly. In my time at Shawbury I have seen instructors work very hard to ensure that the kids coming through get every oppurtunity possible to complete the course. However, at the end of the day you have to ensure that the guys you are sending to the Squadron are fit for the job. The decision to suspend guys from training is never taken lightly and the suggestion that the system does not show enough understanding is (in my experience) unfair. The days of 'oh let him through, the OCF will sort him out' are gone. It is, IMHO, irresponsible of the training system to pass the problem on to someone else.
Felt I had to respond to this. It is unfortunate when people are 'chopped'. However, in my experience, these decisions are never taken lightly. In my time at Shawbury I have seen instructors work very hard to ensure that the kids coming through get every oppurtunity possible to complete the course. However, at the end of the day you have to ensure that the guys you are sending to the Squadron are fit for the job. The decision to suspend guys from training is never taken lightly and the suggestion that the system does not show enough understanding is (in my experience) unfair. The days of 'oh let him through, the OCF will sort him out' are gone. It is, IMHO, irresponsible of the training system to pass the problem on to someone else.
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How many mates have you seen chopped?
Further to Cazatou's comment, In the late seventies, the Canberra OCU was fielding ex-V Force co-pilots who hadn't hacked it to 4 jet captain. Why the powers that be thought Canberra captaincy would be easier, I do not know - but in several cases they were wrong.
The 'caring' solution was to try and get them back on to aircraft where they could be co-pilots for a bit longer. Some went that way, some bit the dust there and then. A generalisation, perhaps, but the main problem seemed to be an inability to fly and think at the same time.
The 'caring' solution was to try and get them back on to aircraft where they could be co-pilots for a bit longer. Some went that way, some bit the dust there and then. A generalisation, perhaps, but the main problem seemed to be an inability to fly and think at the same time.
Would echo the sentiments that the instructor fraternity usually makes a great deal of effort to get people through. This is usually invisible to the stude and they may see the changes of instructor as "just being messed about and leading to lack of continuity", but often the staff are working hard to match studes to instructor to sortie profile. Trust me, it's not often that the stude knows what's best for them.
As to the carping, "well, I was good enough but there weren't enough slots" - no you weren't!!. You may have been good enough to have passed the course 6 months ago or a year ago but as requirements change, so the bar moves - how could it be any other way? On any course, if you are good enough you will pass - you might just need to be bloody good if your timing is off!
As to the carping, "well, I was good enough but there weren't enough slots" - no you weren't!!. You may have been good enough to have passed the course 6 months ago or a year ago but as requirements change, so the bar moves - how could it be any other way? On any course, if you are good enough you will pass - you might just need to be bloody good if your timing is off!
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Oblique96, there were also several other 'send 'em to where they can't do any harm' type slots. I won't iterate where they were apart from one which was as a FAC.
No idea if he ever flew again but I know he thought it was better than sliced bread. Driver, radio ops, tents, landrover and his own boss.
No idea if he ever flew again but I know he thought it was better than sliced bread. Driver, radio ops, tents, landrover and his own boss.
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Any student who is chopped (or has been in recent years) was given every possible chance to succeed. The system is now SO student friendly (rightly so) and TG et al are paranoid about having a water-tight case that each student is given umpteen extra hrs/sorties before the axe finally falls.
As someone else said, I don't regret any of my decisions to swing the axe, but I do feel sorry as it falls. Such is life.
I know people who would make cr@p aircrew who are very successful in other areas of life - it's all about finding out what you can and can't do.
Fact: some people make crap aircrew, some are good. To want to fly doesn't mean you have a divine right to, it takes hard work and a certain skill-set.
As someone else said, I don't regret any of my decisions to swing the axe, but I do feel sorry as it falls. Such is life.
I know people who would make cr@p aircrew who are very successful in other areas of life - it's all about finding out what you can and can't do.
Fact: some people make crap aircrew, some are good. To want to fly doesn't mean you have a divine right to, it takes hard work and a certain skill-set.
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I was not offered multis based on quotas.
Quotas are a part of recruiting in any walk of life. Gordon Brown wants to be Prime Minister, but the quota is only for one and the slot is filled! No sane person would suggest that we have a couple of PMs for a while, just so that we don't waste the investment that taxpayers have put in to his perks...
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There are some valid points in this thread but an overwhelming amount of bleating. There is NO doubt that the trg system is much better now than 15 or 20 years ago, any student today who makes the grade will go on to the next stage of trg (in some cases that means people who only just make the grade reach their limit on a sqn when in years gone by they'd be wearing blue or civvies).
That said, where does the idea that the RAF owes pilots slots come from, the RAF needs what it needs and that changes, life they call it, everybody outside of the forces deals with it daily.
Be upset, who wouldn't be, and the lucky (or good enough) ones of us should be greatful for what we get to do, but move on and don't think that because you weren't good enough for one job the RAF owes you a 'lesser' skilled one. Btw I'm sure the multi lads don't appreciate the bleating effectively undermining the proffessional skills that their jobs require.
Sorry for the rant - there is plenty of sympathy for studes during and after the event and no qfi/qhi likes failing a single trip let alone chopping someone, but if it's happened there is a reason so deal with it, if gp 2 pilots are needed AND you're suitable then even the fiscally retarded RAF wouldn't waste the trg investment in you.... if you can't take critisism maybe you tried the wrong job!
That said, where does the idea that the RAF owes pilots slots come from, the RAF needs what it needs and that changes, life they call it, everybody outside of the forces deals with it daily.
Be upset, who wouldn't be, and the lucky (or good enough) ones of us should be greatful for what we get to do, but move on and don't think that because you weren't good enough for one job the RAF owes you a 'lesser' skilled one. Btw I'm sure the multi lads don't appreciate the bleating effectively undermining the proffessional skills that their jobs require.
Sorry for the rant - there is plenty of sympathy for studes during and after the event and no qfi/qhi likes failing a single trip let alone chopping someone, but if it's happened there is a reason so deal with it, if gp 2 pilots are needed AND you're suitable then even the fiscally retarded RAF wouldn't waste the trg investment in you.... if you can't take critisism maybe you tried the wrong job!
Hangar On, you explain your feelings eloquently and I can sympathise with the bad time anyone who is chopped must go through to sort themselves out again.
However, your point that you had 3 years of wasted time isn't legitimate in my view - you got a whole course up to the wings point worth of flying and ground school, plus I assume a bunch of officer training that a lot of corportate types would rate highly.
The flying hours alone would cost a punter many thousands.
Edited to spell 'corporate' properly!
However, your point that you had 3 years of wasted time isn't legitimate in my view - you got a whole course up to the wings point worth of flying and ground school, plus I assume a bunch of officer training that a lot of corportate types would rate highly.
The flying hours alone would cost a punter many thousands.
Edited to spell 'corporate' properly!