Hercules ESF - technical, tactical and service issues. (Title edited)
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Hercules ESF - technical, tactical and service issues. (Title edited)
I have seldom seen a more worthwhile (and easy to sign) aviation related petition than the one below that demands of the UK government (such as it currently is), the immediate installation of Explosive Suppression Foam (ESF) for the UK Hercules (C130) transport fleet of the Royal Air Force. Full details can be found on the Parliamentary Questions thread in the Military Aircrew section.
Petion - Sign Here.
Whether you guys and gals are military (or ex), it doesn’t matter. Please support the safety and well-being of fellow aviators, doing a gallant and difficult job, currently flying into and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, in small arms-vulnerable, non-ESF equipped aircraft, to safeguard the legacy of our glorious leader, Tony Bliar and assure his place in the history books…. er, I mean build and safeguard democracy in these two traditionally supportive countries of UK!!
My own interest is that I am ex, from a thousand years ago but I’m still reduced, on occasions, to incoherent rage, by the callous ignorance, indifference and stupidity of the various Blunties who constitute Parliament and whose insouciant clandestine visits in ESF/DAS equipped aircraft to either of these countries (merely to boost their own political profiles) blinds them of the need to safeguard their own priceless military personnel, for the sake of a few extra bob spent on each aircraft.
If you really want to get up-close and personal, write to your MP here and vent your full feelings – after all, you probably voted for the clown! But even if you don’t write, signing is a matter of taking democratic action against an out-of-control and out-of-touch “leader”.
Petion - Sign Here.
Whether you guys and gals are military (or ex), it doesn’t matter. Please support the safety and well-being of fellow aviators, doing a gallant and difficult job, currently flying into and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, in small arms-vulnerable, non-ESF equipped aircraft, to safeguard the legacy of our glorious leader, Tony Bliar and assure his place in the history books…. er, I mean build and safeguard democracy in these two traditionally supportive countries of UK!!
My own interest is that I am ex, from a thousand years ago but I’m still reduced, on occasions, to incoherent rage, by the callous ignorance, indifference and stupidity of the various Blunties who constitute Parliament and whose insouciant clandestine visits in ESF/DAS equipped aircraft to either of these countries (merely to boost their own political profiles) blinds them of the need to safeguard their own priceless military personnel, for the sake of a few extra bob spent on each aircraft.
If you really want to get up-close and personal, write to your MP here and vent your full feelings – after all, you probably voted for the clown! But even if you don’t write, signing is a matter of taking democratic action against an out-of-control and out-of-touch “leader”.
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Although there are a fair number of ex-Herc mates signed on at the moment (G-Lock, Cranners, Bob Hooper etc), there aren't many current personnel there (I counted just 5 out of 800). It looks like the fear of unstated reprisals is holding a number of people back...
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-- petition signed! 
I would sooner have a fleet wide fit of DIRCM than ESF. By the way are you 100% sure that ESF would have saved those poor chaps? I'm not - I think they were hit by everything but the kitchen sink...ESF won't save you from that!
Regards
LJ
Regards
LJ
LJ
Whether you are right or wrong, the MoD wastes, every day, the money it would have cost to fit ESF. At one time it was incompetence and/or ignorance, but as the most senior staffs, both Service and Civilian, have been told this and continue to actively condone it; then that makes it criminal. Just my opinion. Petition signed.
Whether you are right or wrong, the MoD wastes, every day, the money it would have cost to fit ESF. At one time it was incompetence and/or ignorance, but as the most senior staffs, both Service and Civilian, have been told this and continue to actively condone it; then that makes it criminal. Just my opinion. Petition signed.
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Leon - there isn't indeed any really conclusive proof that ESF could have saved XV179. However there isn't any real proof that a seat belt will save your life at 50 mph . It is however reasonable to suggest that ESF protection
is a cheap gamble which could save lives in future.
is a cheap gamble which could save lives in future.
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Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz
I would sooner have a fleet wide fit of DIRCM than ESF. By the way are you 100% sure that ESF would have saved those poor chaps? I'm not - I think they were hit by everything but the kitchen sink...ESF won't save you from that!
Regards
LJ
Regards
LJ
Amply aware of DIRCM's current capability and the near future (I'm an EWI by the way). I just think the 'holy crusade' for ESF that seems to be developing is a touch misguided if people think it would have saved XV179.
IMHO I believe that money could be better spent on the Hercy bird in other ways, and also other RAF aircraft for that matter.
And by the way, the Tonka mate on board was a good mate of mine.
LJ
IMHO I believe that money could be better spent on the Hercy bird in other ways, and also other RAF aircraft for that matter.
And by the way, the Tonka mate on board was a good mate of mine.
LJ
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hi chappie here. i'm bob o'connors sis. he was one of the unlucky crew on the plane xv179. whether you think that foam would or would not have saved them can be your own personal view, but there is no getting away from the fact that there is a huge degree of neglience from many quarters in the fact there is no reason that i can see that can make it okay not to have foam/ESF. it was me who decided to organise the petition. there is a real need for there to be a visual aid for those in higher office who consider that it isn't really seaired/needed or important. the crew didi not die in vain. i understand that there will be many views which will say to the contrary about the outcome. i've seen with my own eyes that the independent AAIB man thought the probability of loss if foam was fitted would be altered significantly. nonetheless, there is no way of bringing the boys back. i want to help leave a legacy in the name of the boys to ensure no other family have to go through what i have. if you agree that foam would have changed the outcome then great...sign the petition and spread the word. if you don't feel that foam would have any impact for that fateful flight then fine....sign the petition and spread the word. please .
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Leon, there is a big misunderstanding about what brought XV 179 down. If you knew you would be shocked. Talk to USAF Herc operaters. The first item of self protection that goes onto a USAF Hercules is foam. It is the first layer on which every other type of protection is built. I have heard other RAF aircrew say the same as you. I believe you are wrong. 6 USAF Hercs were hit by ground fire in GW2. Much more severe attacks than that which brought down XV179. With unprotected tanks this ac is a death trap. It is right that every Herc should have foam. It even acts as a FOD barrier. I believe foam would have helped in this latest incident.
The Tornado has a fuel tank inerting system in the fin. It travels twice as fast as a Hercules and is a much smaller target. Herc operaters face a small arms threat every time they fly in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you cannot see that they need this protection I suggest you do a bit of research.
All power to the petition. If you are still unconvinced think in the big picture. Hercules safety is being raised in the conscience of the British public. I think enhanced protection will follow. Today I wrote requesting the immediate reinstatement of the J DAS program. First we want the foam.
NG
The Tornado has a fuel tank inerting system in the fin. It travels twice as fast as a Hercules and is a much smaller target. Herc operaters face a small arms threat every time they fly in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you cannot see that they need this protection I suggest you do a bit of research.
All power to the petition. If you are still unconvinced think in the big picture. Hercules safety is being raised in the conscience of the British public. I think enhanced protection will follow. Today I wrote requesting the immediate reinstatement of the J DAS program. First we want the foam.
NG
Last edited by nigegilb; 26th May 2006 at 23:40.
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Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz
I would sooner have a fleet wide fit of DIRCM than ESF. By the way are you 100% sure that ESF would have saved those poor chaps? I'm not - I think they were hit by everything but the kitchen sink...ESF won't save you from that!
Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz
Amply aware of DIRCM's current capability and the near future (I'm an EWI by the way). I just think the 'holy crusade' for ESF that seems to be developing is a touch misguided if people think it would have saved XV179.
At least w/ESF, they probably wouldn't have blown off the end of their wing & gone instantly uncontrollable...
DIRCM alone is ****e - wish this were a classified forum, I could tell story after story of the shortcomings of DIRCM. As an EWI, however, you're probably overly enamoured of all the invisible 'trons streaming to your rescue - typical.
Familiar with Trial EMBOW? Read up & see the "old" technology is damn near as good, more reliable, & cheaper to boot.
Finally, DIRCM only works against IR MANPADS - ESF isn't threat specific...
BTW, MoD is being fleeced by whomever is quoting £700K/aircraft
to fit ESF (Marshalls?) ...raw materials are on the order of £15-20K/aircraft - check with the MFGR.
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Hrk Drvr,
I sometimes feel exasperated by some of the attitudes towards this safety measure. How many ac have we lost to SAMs? There is a preoccupation with anti-missile defence. I am well aware of the capability of modern missiles and it is important that crews have that protection. But sending them in without foam is a huge mistake. You simply have to look at the proliferation of the most common weapons in the sort of theatres that the Hercules operates to see that the protection afforded by foam is essential.
I sometimes feel exasperated by some of the attitudes towards this safety measure. How many ac have we lost to SAMs? There is a preoccupation with anti-missile defence. I am well aware of the capability of modern missiles and it is important that crews have that protection. But sending them in without foam is a huge mistake. You simply have to look at the proliferation of the most common weapons in the sort of theatres that the Hercules operates to see that the protection afforded by foam is essential.
Hrc Drvr
“BTW, MoD is being fleeced by whomever is quoting £700K/aircraft to fit ESF (Marshalls?) ...raw materials are on the order of £15-20K/aircraft - check with the MFGR”.
There could be many reasons for this – the most likely being £20k is the cost of the mod set and the remainder is taken up with installation and various non-recurring costs. But yes, it seems a lot if that is the cost per a/c.
On one occasion, I had cause to manage the procurement and installation of a relatively simple mod. However, due to the MoD’s long standing policy of not maintaining the build standard (which includes safety) I discovered I had to arrange the procurement and installation of over 60 essential mods, dating back some 10 years or more, before the build standard was correct to fit one I actually wanted. So, the mod set I wanted was a few £k, but the total cost many £Ms. This may seem extreme but it’s actually very common and helps explain why a seemingly innocuous requirement can end up being years “late” and “over budget” (but not over the fair and reasonable cost).
Read the first page of this and you’ll get the idea. (BTW, whoever briefed, or was interviewed by, the NAO was very economical with the truth or just plain ignorant of the subject. In any case, MoD ignored the report).
http://www.nao.org.uk/pn/989924.htm
And this….
http://www.publications.parliament.u.../300/30005.htm
“BTW, MoD is being fleeced by whomever is quoting £700K/aircraft to fit ESF (Marshalls?) ...raw materials are on the order of £15-20K/aircraft - check with the MFGR”.
There could be many reasons for this – the most likely being £20k is the cost of the mod set and the remainder is taken up with installation and various non-recurring costs. But yes, it seems a lot if that is the cost per a/c.
On one occasion, I had cause to manage the procurement and installation of a relatively simple mod. However, due to the MoD’s long standing policy of not maintaining the build standard (which includes safety) I discovered I had to arrange the procurement and installation of over 60 essential mods, dating back some 10 years or more, before the build standard was correct to fit one I actually wanted. So, the mod set I wanted was a few £k, but the total cost many £Ms. This may seem extreme but it’s actually very common and helps explain why a seemingly innocuous requirement can end up being years “late” and “over budget” (but not over the fair and reasonable cost).
Read the first page of this and you’ll get the idea. (BTW, whoever briefed, or was interviewed by, the NAO was very economical with the truth or just plain ignorant of the subject. In any case, MoD ignored the report).
http://www.nao.org.uk/pn/989924.htm
And this….
http://www.publications.parliament.u.../300/30005.htm
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Originally Posted by tucumseh
There could be many reasons for this – the most likely being £20k is the cost of the mod set and the remainder is taken up with installation and various non-recurring costs. But yes, it seems a lot if that is the cost per a/c.
On one occasion, I had cause to manage the procurement and installation of a relatively simple mod. However, due to the MoD’s long standing policy of not maintaining the build standard (which includes safety) I discovered I had to arrange the procurement and installation of over 60 essential mods, dating back some 10 years or more, before the build standard was correct to fit one I actually wanted. So, the mod set I wanted was a few £k, but the total cost many £Ms. This may seem extreme but it’s actually very common and helps explain why a seemingly innocuous requirement can end up being years “late” and “over budget” (but not over the fair and reasonable cost).
On one occasion, I had cause to manage the procurement and installation of a relatively simple mod. However, due to the MoD’s long standing policy of not maintaining the build standard (which includes safety) I discovered I had to arrange the procurement and installation of over 60 essential mods, dating back some 10 years or more, before the build standard was correct to fit one I actually wanted. So, the mod set I wanted was a few £k, but the total cost many £Ms. This may seem extreme but it’s actually very common and helps explain why a seemingly innocuous requirement can end up being years “late” and “over budget” (but not over the fair and reasonable cost).
While the company who installs it will have to be paid for the installation, you shouldn't be paying for R&D or developing a programme, or anything else that implies this is a new endeavour - else, just have someone in the states (with the experience & stock on hand) fit it (at nearly 1.9$/1£ this might be a good deal anyway) - if the mod runs longer than a few weeks/aircraft, there's something wrong too...Someone give the mfgrs a bell:
http://www.crestfoam.com/
http://www.newdimension-inc.com/index.cfm
http://www.foamengineers.co.uk/foam_..._materials.htm
http://www.customfoams.co.uk/cf/cont...oducts/esf.htm
These off the first page of a google search (reticulated foam esf)
Last edited by HrkDrvr; 27th May 2006 at 06:59.
This important thread should have been left on Rumours and News (with a copy here if that's possible) for maximum exposure.
I rarely visit this forum and would not have spotted the "moved" link if it had not been on the front page of R&N. I am sure there are plenty like me, who would wish to sign but may not now see it.
I rarely visit this forum and would not have spotted the "moved" link if it had not been on the front page of R&N. I am sure there are plenty like me, who would wish to sign but may not now see it.
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Another fuel tank explosion
This is takem from rumours and news. In the space of a few days we have lost A C130 Herc and now a commercial airliner appears to have suffered a fuel tank explosion. The FAA is very close to legislating, cost is a big factor. Before this incident I believe 4 airliners have been lost to fuel tank explosions in 16 years. This may prompt FAA to move. Modern airliners are increasingly having fuel tank inerting technology installed as standard. MoD, your ac are targetted by all kinds of weaponry, act now!
Wing Tank Explosion Madras
NTSB SENDS TEAM TO INDIA TO ASSIST INVESTIGATION OF AIRLINER WING FUEL TANK EXPLOSION
************************************************** **********
The National Transportation Safety Board is sending a team of investigators to Bangalore, India, to assist in the investigation of a reported left wing fuel tank explosion on a Transmile Airlines B727-200.
The incident involving a Malaysia-registered airplane occurred May 4, 2006, during a ground repositioning. There were no passengers on board and no injuries were reported.
"The tragic TWA 800 accident in 1996 highlighted the vulnerability of transport aircraft fuel tanks," said NTSB Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker. "A decade later, the issue remains a major concern of the Safety Board and is on our Most Wanted List of Safety Improvements. I am hopeful what is learned in this investigation may provide added impetus for a resolution of this problem without further delay. "
The NTSB team will be led by Lorenda Ward, the U.S.
Accredited Representative. She will be joined by three Safety Board specialists in systems, structures and fire/explosions, plus representatives of the FAA and the Boeing corporation.
.
Should reinvigorate this long running issue
.
Doesn't seem to have made the world's press thus far....
Wing Tank Explosion Madras
NTSB SENDS TEAM TO INDIA TO ASSIST INVESTIGATION OF AIRLINER WING FUEL TANK EXPLOSION
************************************************** **********
The National Transportation Safety Board is sending a team of investigators to Bangalore, India, to assist in the investigation of a reported left wing fuel tank explosion on a Transmile Airlines B727-200.
The incident involving a Malaysia-registered airplane occurred May 4, 2006, during a ground repositioning. There were no passengers on board and no injuries were reported.
"The tragic TWA 800 accident in 1996 highlighted the vulnerability of transport aircraft fuel tanks," said NTSB Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker. "A decade later, the issue remains a major concern of the Safety Board and is on our Most Wanted List of Safety Improvements. I am hopeful what is learned in this investigation may provide added impetus for a resolution of this problem without further delay. "
The NTSB team will be led by Lorenda Ward, the U.S.
Accredited Representative. She will be joined by three Safety Board specialists in systems, structures and fire/explosions, plus representatives of the FAA and the Boeing corporation.
.
Should reinvigorate this long running issue
.
Doesn't seem to have made the world's press thus far....
Last edited by nigegilb; 27th May 2006 at 15:49.
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Originally Posted by HrkDrvr
And DIRCM would've done jack squat for 'em as well. At least w/ESF, they probably wouldn't have blown off the end of their wing & gone instantly uncontrollable...
DIRCM alone is ****e - wish this were a classified forum, I could tell story after story of the shortcomings of DIRCM. As an EWI, however, you're probably overly enamoured of all the invisible 'trons streaming to your rescue - typical.
Familiar with Trial EMBOW? Read up & see the "old" technology is damn near as good, more reliable, & cheaper to boot.
Finally, DIRCM only works against IR MANPADS - ESF isn't threat specific...
BTW, MoD is being fleeced by whomever is quoting £700K/aircraft to fit ESF (Marshalls?) ...raw materials are on the order of £15-20K/aircraft - check with the MFGR.
At least w/ESF, they probably wouldn't have blown off the end of their wing & gone instantly uncontrollable... DIRCM alone is ****e - wish this were a classified forum, I could tell story after story of the shortcomings of DIRCM. As an EWI, however, you're probably overly enamoured of all the invisible 'trons streaming to your rescue - typical.
Familiar with Trial EMBOW? Read up & see the "old" technology is damn near as good, more reliable, & cheaper to boot.
Finally, DIRCM only works against IR MANPADS - ESF isn't threat specific...
BTW, MoD is being fleeced by whomever is quoting £700K/aircraft
to fit ESF (Marshalls?) ...raw materials are on the order of £15-20K/aircraft - check with the MFGR.DIRCM/LAIRCM does more for the politicians and CAS than for the crew. It sound impressive, but of course no one can tell you what it does. But it must be good becuase it is expensive. A bit like stealth.
The reality is our infantry train to shoot down low flying aircraft using their rifles. We can assume that any unfriendlies will also train for this, and use it (its a lot cheaper than MANPADs). ESF, cockpit armour and aircrew body armour are a must for all our AT assets.
The reality is our infantry train to shoot down low flying aircraft using their rifles
On the subject of Tonka inert gas systems in the fin - yup it would be nice if it were working in all the jets, but it didn't stop us going sausage side anyway. At the end of the day if something makes the fin go bang then the chances are that the same ignition source is also going to give you a rather bad day in the office!
On the DIRCM issue, hot bricks and flares will most likely not fully protect you from the later bits of kit (I mean anything that was built in the last 15-20yrs). Also it won't protect you from ground fire, rockets and RPGs and alike - that's why in that last few conflicts the Tonka hasn't been anywhere near terra firma (well as far away as you can get it!). Flying at low-level is a dangerous game and you can expect to pay the ultimate price sooner or later (ask the helo mates).
ESF, cockpit armour and aircrew body armour are a must for all our AT assets
If it were down to me, I don't know where I would spend the money, but I'm pretty sure ESF is not the answer to your problems (IMHO). Maybe we should look at neutralising the source of the threat to our AT fleet as they recover (in Force Protection or something else) rather than relying on another system that gets slated when it gets fitted (a la DIRCM which you AT guys have been asking for years and are now slating it). I know that the Hercy Bird can fly nicely with bits of wing missing, however, there is no guarantee it will (especially if in an approach config near to the ground).
Rant over and out...
Thinking of 'trons as type