Hercules ESF - technical, tactical and service issues. (Title edited)

[BEagle]

Excellent debrief for that pratt Leon, chappie!

Permanent Sand, presumably by your comments 'With the relevant fleet about to be pushed to it's limit, any spanner in the works will also put a halt to careers of those pushing the work rate. This is what you guys should be more worried about.', you mean that concern should be expressed that those in the mad MoD-box are more worried about delays to their bottom-licking upwards crawl than they are in protecting the dwindling assets of the overstretched AT force?

[flipster]

Beags

Oh yes...... nail/head/contact!

PS

Sorry, I know there is more to the cost thingy than just being able to get the frame to Marshalls and the initial cost of the foam.

Sadly, you are are all too correct in that 'them with egg on their hats' will not be keen to lose assets off the AT prog. This is basically because we got rid of too many ac in the late 90s/early 00s - now we don't have enough to give us any flexibility......

..... especially as we have lost 3 ac since those decisions were taken in mid 90s!

We certainly don't have enough flex to continue wage war, continue to train and get the foam fitted. I doubt that, even if we stopped all training, things would be any better - as we have pretty much stopped training already!

That happened back in 2002/3 from which hiatus, we never really totally recovered!

The only answer is for the AOC to put his hand up and call 'Terminate'. I doubt that wil happen though. Of course, if enough pressure to fit foam is applied then maybe the MoD may just have to ask the treasury for extra spondulicks!

I am an eternal optimist!

[chappie]

now, this might seem too simplistic but nonetheless if something needs saying you can guarantee i'll be the one saying it. what is the problem with the AOC going cap in hand to the treasury to ask for extra funds? is there something that i'm missing? i'm not sure the comparison i'm going to make is of any use but here goes. the government can release funds to help sort out the pensions cock up with a large company (can't remember) and give money to the car industry so why not protect one of this contries most necessary assets? or am i being too thick about this?

moving on. this weekend i'm going to discuss the next step in the campaign, the petition specifically. i have a list of people i think who should see it but i would be very grateful for any suggestions to who else i should forward the petition on to. i would also like to let you know that on the campaign blog page there is a section where you can download the petition onto a paper format. this would be very useful if we could get this done and sent round lyneham and it's community. i'm anticipating about another week before i'm looking to take it off and give to the necessary people although one person in particular seems to have his head in the sand and i would appreciate ideas how to combat it. des browne seems to think that he has met with the families and therefore does not see the need to do this again. i've asked for a meeting with him. this was prior to the petition. he has not answered letters or emails and is frankly quite elusive yet displaying all the signs of a very worried man. why else avoid meeting me. what has he got to be frightened of a little nursie like me! i'm harmless really.

anyone who has yet to sign the petition please do so....please. if you are in two minds then read this i need your signatures to help change this atrocious situation i need your signatures so that the three little ones sig.no's 1698,1699 and 1700 can see they've made a difference. if these kids have got the guts through their grief to stand up and be heard then so can we all. this campaign is about protection it is not a sideline or diversion for the pain i feel in not having bob around, but i tell you this i will do everything i can painful or not to get my voice heard and try and lead by example so that the children that are left behind can see that their loved daddies and uncles left a wonderful legacy so that no others have to go through this atrocity with which we are left to deal with. yes, it hurts ,yes, i miss him so much and god knows i need him to get me through this but i will not back down, so please lend me your voice and lend me your knowledge. now, to change the subject as misty eyes here is off for a long hard bawl.


before i away...come on leon, time for round three, your serve!

[tucumseh]

acquiring kit

“now, this might seem too simplistic but nonetheless if something needs saying you can guarantee i'll be the one saying it. what is the problem with the AOC going cap in hand to the treasury to ask for extra funds? is there something that i'm missing? i'm not sure the comparison i'm going to make is of any use but here goes. the government can release funds to help sort out the pensions cock up with a large company (can't remember) and give money to the car industry so why not protect one of this contries most necessary assets? or am i being too thick about this?”


Chappie

You are not being simplistic. If anything, the solution lies well below the pay grade of those you mention.

Someone in the IPT (certainly no higher than a Sqn Ldr/C1) should sit down and draft a “Business Case”. Having jotted down key phrases like “Duty of Care”, “unsustainable attrition”, “threat of litigation” and “Operational Constraint” the rest is simple. There is an excellent template to fill in to make sure you cover everything for “Requirement Scrutiny”. The fact that no complicated or expensive development is required makes it relatively simple as the funding could be committed “in-year”. Final approval depends on the cost, but I imagine a Gp Capt would have the signing powers (typically up to Ł20M).

While what I describe is not quite routine (it bypasses DEC but one would seek their support up front and they’d probably be glad of the help) it is a common way of acquiring kit. It avoids the pitfalls of the UOR route and is quicker than EP bids. The key is identifying funding. I mentioned Ł20M. Again, while not routine, it is a basic competence demanded of a Sqn Ldr/C1 in DPA or DLO to be required to identify such a sum for precisely such a reason and, having done so, staff the requirement to completion. (And why shouldn’t it be?)

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I speak from personal experience, having done this many times in PE, DLO and DPA. The expected competences I speak of have been endorsed by CDP. (He went further by confirming one is expected to work at home in your own time to complete the task). The good thing about this route is that you are not dealing with a faceless beancounter in Whitehall, but looking the guy with the signature in the eye. Be prepared for the snide comments behind your back but I find the best thing to do is simply promise them they can take the credit if all goes well. (My last boss wouldn’t sign until I put this in writing!).

My apologies to the IPT if their Business Case has been prepared and thrown back. But at least you now have a name. Others here will know in more detail at what level this is being addressed.

Chappie, I sincerely hope this helps.

[nigegilb]

MoD is saying something different to RAF. I understand that foam is being fitted on back of UOR. However MoD saying the only restriction on fitting it to the whole fleet is age of ac etc. Can anyone clear this up?

[nigegilb]

I saw General Jackson being interviewed about the commencement of GW2. He was asked specifically if he realised that all the protective kit was not in place for the army. He admitted so and then retorted that nothing was perfect in war. Extraordinary. The reason the stuff was not in place was because of the desire of Blair not to upset his European counterparts by showing his hand too soon. The logistical problem for the military was difficult to solve in the remaining time available. Shame on General Jackson for not turning round and saying to the PM that the military did not have enough time to be ready.
I saw GJ in the Kosovo war, I tried to have a word but his CPT boys soon got in the way. He was very well protected then. I understand MoD admitted culpability for the death of the soldier forced to hand over his body armour. Our overarching aim is to change the culture at the MoD and amongst the so-called Top Brass. They need to spend more time thinking about their own people and less time thinking about their careers.

HC you are wise to point out that youth equates to feelings of immortality. I am sure the guys on XV179 were not preoccupied by the risks they were taking. I too consider myself very lucky, which may be a reason for my own zeal. Incidentally, if you had a bang seat you probably had a chance of surviving. Herc crews only have tactics and luck at the moment.

[flipster]

Herc crews only have tactics and luck at the moment.

.....but we are using up our luck at a prodigous rate!

(A few years back, I seem to remember writing something similar to someone quite senior )

[highcirrus]

Further to my previous post and mention of the attitude of the “brass”, the following piece will be instructive to serious students of the genre. It really is worth wading through and it is also interesting to note that, to date, General Jackson has made no reply to Bruce Anderson.

Perhaps the most damming article written in the last 10 years? (" ... Mike Jackson has the heart of a toy poodle. His career as Chief of the General Staff is a study in moral failure... ")

Spectator 19 November 2005

CONDUCT UNBECOMING

Bruce Anderson damns senior officers for not resisting moves to have British soldiers appear before the International Criminal Court

Actions are being taken in the British people's name which should make us feel appalled. The government's behaviour towards the British army has been despicable.

In Northern behind, there are plans to give an amnesty to IRA terrorists who were never prosecuted because they went on the run, Though an unappealing prospect that could he regarded as falling within the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement. But someone saw a difficulty. What if evidence emerged which could lead to the prosecution of a British soldier, after all the terrorists had won immunity. A bizarre solution was found. It is proposed to re-examine thousands of killings which look place in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, including the killings of terrorists by members of the security forces. The intention is that this will lead to a general amnesty. It would also establish a moral equivalence between the British army and the terrorists. This has caused outrage throughout the army. When the Romans took prisoners, they made them pass under a yoke which normally harnessed beasts of burden. This was not painful but it was humiliating. The British Army feels that it is now being made to pass under the yoke. If the defence ministers were trying to sabotage recruitment and eradicate morale they could hardly have done better.

Yet there is worse. The ministers have not acted out of malice. They are merely guilty of naivety, incompetence and stupidity. They could not have done anything like as much damage without the help of the generals. Politically, this government is weak and growing weaker. If the generals had been prepared in push their disagreements to the point of resignation, the ministers would have collapsed like a wet meringue. But - and this is terrible - there is no evidence that the generals did disagree.

Man for man, the British army is now the best in the world. The principal reason for this is the quality of training. But training is not just a matter of teaching techniques and instilling discipline. Training is about bonding and instilling an ethos. Both of those depend on the integrity of the chain of command and on leadership. However well-drilled, the modem private soldier may be, he is a thinking creature, not an automaton.

He will not long follow men whom he does not respect. Those in authority over him win that respect by their confidence, their courage and their commitment to his welfare. That is the unspoken contract between the officer and his men: do what I tell you, and I will look after you as best I can.

That is the contract which the lawyers are now forcing the officers to dishonour. In his dealings with Tony Blair over the legality of the Iraq war, Lord Goldsmith, the Attorney General, was so invertebrate that he would go on licking the Prime Minister’s boots even while his backside was being kicked in his dealings with the army. The Attorney General has been consistent. He believes that UK armed forces should be a free-fire zone for human rights, political correctness and international jurisdiction. As a result, dubious solicitors who used to chase ambulances now chase khaki. British soldiers in Iraq often come across the slug slime of shyster lawyers.

Senior officers are not seeking permission for their men to run amok. That would the the end of discipline. It is always impressed upon soldiers that they must fight within the Geneva Convention. When troops are in combat, every serious incident is investigated within the chain of command, and this is not a formality. Over the years plenty of soldiers have been prosecuted.

Chain of command justice has one advantage. As those conducting the investigation understand the context in which soldier must operate. They can make informed judgements as to acceptable behaviour. That is not true of Lord Goldsmith and his minions. Yet over the past few years, the lawyers in London have succeeded in devaluing the chain of command.

Trooper Williams was cleared after an investigation by two colonels. That availed him nothing once the Crown Prosecution Service intervened. In court, the case against him collapsed. But the good soldier who had risked his life was rewarded with two years under the shadow of a murder charge. Other CPS-inspired cases have also folded, but not until the soldiers concerned had been punished with months of anxiety for the crime of serving their country.

As a result of this, one might have thought that the army would have asserted itself to restore the primacy of the chain of command. Not so: the Attorney General was able to rebut any such moves with the threat of the International Criminal Court. When Britain signed up to the ICC, there were assurances that British soldiers would never appear in front of it. It would only act in countries which refused to mount proper investigations of their own. But senior officers have now been warned that the ICC would not regard the chain of command as an adequate legal procedure. So methods which have been tried and tested over the decades would not prevent foreign lawyers from putting British soldiers on a par with Milosevic; more of the yoke.

The generals alone cannot solve the problem of the ICC. But one might expect some resistance. Instead, senior figures have made love to their employment as lawyers' pimps. A brigadier working directly for General Sir Michael Jackson wrote as follows: 'Do you have any evidence of officer misbehaviour in Iraq which I could use?’

The cold, callous tone of that missive could have come from some satirists’ version of the château-generals in the first world war. The satirists were writing fiction. That brigadier's letter encouraged the prosecution of Colonel Jorge Mendonca, DSO, an outstanding soldier. A country which can treat Colonel Mendonca like this ought to be ashamed of itself. As for the brigadier, better men have shot themselves for worse reasons. Around Mike Jackson, however, they are beyond shame.

Mike Jackson corruptio optimi pessima. Everything about the outward man inspires respect. He looks like a mensch: a fighting soldier, a soldier’s soldier, the last commander on earth to be seduced by the politicians. He has force of personality, reinforced by a hint of menace. If he had been willing to stand up to the politicians, they would never have dared to stand up to him.
But all his supposed strengths were a sham. It was said of the great Slim that he had the brains of a Field Marshal and the heart of a private soldier. Mike Jackson has the heart of a toy poodle. His career as Chief of the General Staff is a study in moral failure.

In combat zones, soldiers invariably ask one question of senior visitors: is the country behind them? They desperately want to hear a yes. But how can today's soldiers believe that when the lawyers are allowed to run amok? Throughout the services, there are problems with recruiting and retention. Mr Blair wants to use the army more and more. The way the ministers are acting, there will be less and less to use. What happened to joined-up government?

What has happened to duty, honour, patriotism - to common decency? What has happened to this country when brave colonels are prosecuted while generals full of rank and titles, wearing resplendent uniforms, by all appearances worthy successors to their illustrious forebears - fail in their most basic duty to the men under their command?

[nigegilb]

When he (Jackson) explained away the deaths caused as a result of starting GW2 on time I was very angry. To this day I am disgusted by the thought that a man was ordered to handover his chest protection. There were enough sets in theatre, but not in the right place. As usual the Brass decided to please their political masters. The result of yesterday's collapsed court case highlights the fact that ordinary soldiers have been left "High and Dry" by their ownso-called Top Brass.
Well, recruitment is collapsing and people like Jackson oversaw the break up of the regimental system and said it was a good thing.....
Can anyone confirm if Chiefs retire on full pay? Just wondered if we are getting good value for money.
HC, I have become an avid reader of The Spectator, interestingly this site has been referred to a couple of times in the mag already. Touche.

[highcirrus]

From the thread "Tony Bliar - What is going on with the Armed Forces?", posted today, quoting Con Coughlin in the Daily Telegraph:

....Having served their country with courage, the least our servicemen and women might have expected in return was the support, if not the gratitude, of the Government. In fact, the opposite has proved to be the case.

Instead of rewarding the Armed Forces for their efforts, the Labour Government - acting on the instructions of its pacifist-minded Chancellor, Gordon Brown - has seen Britain's cherished regimental structure torn asunder.

Spending has been reduced to such a level that the Army is unable even to provide troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan with sufficient protection against the sophisticated roadside bombs being used to kill and maim them by Islamic militants .....

[John Blakeley]

Retirement Pay

Nigel,

Re post 83 - sadly not! It used to the case when we had them as CDS that 5* officers were seen as serving until the end of their days, and I believe that they were on full pay. Unless there are special arrangements for CDS then I believe his reward now lies in the Upper House.

JB

[nigegilb]

"Sergeant Steven Roberts, 33, was with the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment when he was shot dead at Zubayr, near Basra, on March 24 while confronting Iraqi protesters. A Ministry of Defence report showed that only days before, Sgt. Roberts was issued with body armour, but was told to hand it back as there were not enough to go around. A pathologist’s report found that the bullet would have been stopped by an armoured body vest, but Roberts had been left with standard armour. To add insult to injury, Sgt. Roberts was apparently killed by so-called “friendly fire.”

This much was already known, but last week Mrs. Roberts, 32, from West Yorkshire, released her husband’s audio diary to the press—given to her by her father-in-law on the day of Roberts’s funeral. In it, Sgt. Roberts called supplies to soldiers “a joke” and the shortages “disgraceful.”

In his entry for March 13, Sgt. Roberts said, “General [Sir Michael] Jackson last week turned round and said ‘yes, we are ready to go’ and our vehicles were still in the boats ready to come into port, so what a blatant lie that was.”

On March 15, he said, “As I have written in your letter we have now got absolutely nothing. It is disgraceful what we have got out here.”

On March 21, after war had begun, he said, “I have not got my combats yet. Things we have been told we are going to get, we’re not and it’s disheartening because we know we are going to go to war without the correct equipment.”

Hoon said he was “extremely sorry” for the death and “extremely sorry” Sgt. Roberts did not have enhanced body armour. But he rejected calls by the Conservatives for his resignation. He said that enhanced body armour had been issued for as many troops as possible, but some of the 38,000 sets sent had not reached units before the war began. Therefore, priority had been given to infantry units."

[Tourist]

Oi!
Keep this thread on the subject of Herc Foam and we are all behind you.
Move into whinging peacenick anti war b@llocks and you can p1ss off.

Plenty of us have no problem with Jackson or his decisions

[nigegilb]

Whoops, sorry if I touched a raw nerve, guilty of a bit of thread creep, important to realise soldiers have real issues with a lack of protection though. Standing by for more incoming!

[tucumseh]

Nigel

I imagine the Army have no problem with your support. Despite what the MoD claim, it most definitely IS policy to have soldiers buy certain kit. (I base this on the premise that, if the MoD know and acknowledge essential kit is required, but deliberately choose not to procure it in the knowledge that the soldier will have no choice but to buy it himself, then that is a policy decision). Ask Silvermans in Warminster. They do a roaring trade. It is disgraceful.

[flipster]

Tourist,

You were right to point out the slight 'thread creep' - but please try to be a little more tactful next time, there's a good chap.

TVM

Flip

[highcirrus]

Tourist

Whilst nigegilb may have slipped into the specific and whilst I’m sure that he would probably agree with the rest of us that General Jackson will indeed have merits as a fine soldier and military leader, notwithstanding the assessment made by Bruce Anderson, in the Spectator article that I posted previously, he was illustrating the point with example, that, to a man, our generals and air marshals have been in mesmeric thrall to the Bliar government and have been derelict in their duty towards the welfare of their subordinates in the conflicts already mentioned.

You may be justifiably content with General Jackson’s performance as a soldier – and I do not contend this element of assessment – but there are those of us who are less than happy with his and others’, supine acquiescence to the deleterious intent and execution of New Labour policy towards the military services.

I agree with that part of the Anderson assessment that he (and others) could have personally stood up to Bliar and the latter would have backed down. Maybe General Jackson is not a very good negotiator?

Perhaps you ought to cut nigegilb some slack? His intentions are entirely honourable and I think that you are both on the same side.

PS. I'm not a "whinging peacenick anti war". I actually supported the thing in 2003 but am now utterly disillusioned by the joint political incompetence and mendacity demonstated to have been in place at the time and seemingly growing more acute as days go by.

[FormerFlake]

What is relvant is when I tried to get some ECBA for the terrific boy and girls from RAF Cartertoon town, 2 years after the war had started, we still could not get any!!! Eventually 80 sets turned up which apparently upset various other stn as we had more than there entire stn did just for aircrew.

My UOR for Military Police Body Armour was approved, but nothing has turned up (any one now at Brize please (hopefull) correct me if I am wrong).

As an aside, I have heard from some RAF supplier who were in Iraq at the time that a load of ECBA turned up by ship and was awaiting distibution. Aparently some Army type came along and said he wanted the area where the body armour was beeing held (along with a lot of other stuff) cleared. So overnight the ISOs disappeared with no proper paperwork done. I'm sure the turned up eventually, but if this action resulted in someones death heads should surely role?


I'm not sure if General Jackson will retire on full pay or not. But no doubts he will be overed some cushy job when he retires, as long as he does not rock the boat. Jobs fo rthe boys and all that.

[A2QFI]

5* Officers Pensions

I understand that we don't have any serving 5* officers at the moment? When we did, they retired on 1/2 pay for life as a pension. I heard that one 4* RAF officer declined promotion to 5* on the basis that his index linked pension was a better deal than 5*'s half pay.

[airborne_artist]

I heard that one 4* RAF officer declined promotion to 5* on the basis that his index linked pension was a better deal than 5*'s half pay.

That differential has existed for a long time - my father used to reckon that it was the wives who told the 4* to take the 5th* - left to their own devices most of the Admirals he knew would have taken the bigger pension and retired to the 19th hole.