AFGHANISTAN - Do We Never Take In The Lessons From History?
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AFGHANISTAN - Do We Never Take In The Lessons From History?
We botched the Afghan war a century ago. The Russians got suckered in long term and got a bloody nose without making a shred of difference [the RUSSIANS, for God's sake - with their endless quantities of troops and equipment]!
The Americans clearly don't want to be there on the ground [bombing from high level is ok, though].
And we send a small force, with questionable kit? What are we doing? And does anyone believe that we have a cat in hell's chance of making a difference?
I truly dispair...
The Americans clearly don't want to be there on the ground [bombing from high level is ok, though].
And we send a small force, with questionable kit? What are we doing? And does anyone believe that we have a cat in hell's chance of making a difference?
I truly dispair...
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What? This govt failing to deliver? Surely not!
Need to be a bit wary now the economy is looking a bit pear-shaped and all these minor scandals at home. Might be a good idea to be a bit more adventurous abroad and take the electorate's mind off what's happening under their noses.
As if they are interested.
Need to be a bit wary now the economy is looking a bit pear-shaped and all these minor scandals at home. Might be a good idea to be a bit more adventurous abroad and take the electorate's mind off what's happening under their noses.
As if they are interested.
Do we never take in lessons from history??
No,
Never,
Worse than that, it appears that General Melchett
and his "unwillingness to stare facts in the face" now has a seat in the Cabinet................
Take care out there people.
Never,
Worse than that, it appears that General Melchett
and his "unwillingness to stare facts in the face" now has a seat in the Cabinet................Take care out there people.
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Having recently recovered from a period of schooling at Shrivenham... I can now tell you that the Armed Forces no longer have a "Lessons Learnt" process after Operations or Exercises. We now have a "Lessons identified" The change came about a couple of years ago as it seemed that we never "Learnt" from lessons anyway so why bother with the process.
However, It is right and correct that we are in Afghanistan trying to help bring law and order to that country. The work that the British Armed Forces are doing is looked upon and admired by many countries. The work that has been completed by 216 Signals has been paramount to achieving succes for the ANA. Remember that the UK is commited to helping Afghanistan secure democracy. If the Armed Forces are not going to help them then who should we send....The Fire Service maybe?
However, It is right and correct that we are in Afghanistan trying to help bring law and order to that country. The work that the British Armed Forces are doing is looked upon and admired by many countries. The work that has been completed by 216 Signals has been paramount to achieving succes for the ANA. Remember that the UK is commited to helping Afghanistan secure democracy. If the Armed Forces are not going to help them then who should we send....The Fire Service maybe?
Last edited by rafloo; 25th May 2006 at 00:53.
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A few years ago I saw footage (on the telly) of our troops . They came across a large wall type thingy in he desert. (It was in Iraq)
They approached it to find that writ upon it was the names of their regimental fellows from 1917.
Same regiment
same names!
At the bottom it said
'lest we forget'
They seemed to have forgotten.
it was not repeated.
They approached it to find that writ upon it was the names of their regimental fellows from 1917.
Same regiment
same names!
At the bottom it said
'lest we forget'
They seemed to have forgotten.
it was not repeated.
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Originally Posted by rafloo
Having recently recovered from a period of schooling at Shrivenham... I can now tell you that the Armed Forces no longer have a "Lessons Learnt" process after Operations or Exercises. We now have a "Lessons identified" The change came about a couple of years ago as it seemed that we never "Learnt" from lessons anyway so why bother with the process.
However, It is right and correct that we are in Afghanistan trying to help bring law and order to that country. The work that the British Armed Forces are doing is looked upon and admired by many countries. The work that has been completed by 216 Signals has been paramount to achieving succes for the ANA. Remember that the UK is commited to helping Afghanistan secure democracy. If the Armed Forces are not going to help them then who should we send....The Fire Service maybe?
However, It is right and correct that we are in Afghanistan trying to help bring law and order to that country. The work that the British Armed Forces are doing is looked upon and admired by many countries. The work that has been completed by 216 Signals has been paramount to achieving succes for the ANA. Remember that the UK is commited to helping Afghanistan secure democracy. If the Armed Forces are not going to help them then who should we send....The Fire Service maybe?
1) We are a warfighting force, not a low intensity conflict world police force. That is the fault of the SDR, and although we would like to think that the SDR was a golden bullet to solving all the worlds woes, it AINT. The last time we had a world police force, we had an empire.that is the whole idea behind NEC and scaling back our forces. NEC gives us absolutely NO advantage over this assymetric threat, just look what has happened to the yanks. We are affectively fighting a war of attrition. Look at how the yanks consider sucess. Body count. Didnt they teach you at Shriv about how considering body count as a measure of sucess? whell te last time they tried it was Vietnam. We have no easily identifiable centre of gravity to fight against to bring this one to a swift conclusion, what are we going after? The drugs? Tribal leaders? Who knows. I dont think anyone does. I think we have been foolishly placed in the desert by a political leadership that has us by the knackers who completely misunderstands the way we work.
2) The Kabul region may of been one thing. However, we all know Khandahar and the other southern regions are a different kettle of fish. They are highly tribal, something that is ingrained in them since the beginning of time, so how exactly are we going to get them to tag along to our neo western style democracy, teach them to be "nice taliban" pay your VAT on your heroin trade? Lunacy. We should just leave them to it.
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And since our guys are being tasked to reduce the herion trade, the vacuum that is left behind will just increase the Afgahns motivation to get rid of the occupying forces.
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Originally Posted by rafloo
Remember that the UK is commited to helping Afghanistan secure democracy. If the Armed Forces are not going to help them then who should we send....The Fire Service maybe?
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DEMOCRACY
The time to establish democracy was immediately after the Afghan conflict in 2002. The Afghan people were happy to see the back of the Taleban and we were accepted in the short term. What happened next? We threw away our golden opportunity by embarking on a ridiculous war in Iraq that sucked in all of our assets and energy. Whilst our backs were turned the Afghan people struggled and the Taleban crept back. 4 years on and we are facing the enemy again. I thought the Americans had learnt their lessons, obviously not. I fear for this mission. This is a strategic screw up that stems from the decision to invade Iraq, something we will live to regret.
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It would be interesting to know whether any of our Strategic masters, both civilian and military, have bothered to read the Russian General Staff Report, The Soviet-Afghan War (How a Superpower Fought and Lost) translated and edited by Grau and Gress, 2002.
It pretty comprehensively sets out most of the pitfalls and problems associated with an invasion to prop up an unpopular (or irrelevant) regime in the area...a not dissimilar situation to the one UK PLC may well be facing within a year.
It makes very interesting and disturbing reading. On a lighter note Flashman (George MacDonald Fraser) seemed to have a good handle on the problems associated with Afghanistan, they mostly revolved around incompetent Civil Servants, Politicians, Policy and Generalship...
Mr R
It pretty comprehensively sets out most of the pitfalls and problems associated with an invasion to prop up an unpopular (or irrelevant) regime in the area...a not dissimilar situation to the one UK PLC may well be facing within a year.
It makes very interesting and disturbing reading. On a lighter note Flashman (George MacDonald Fraser) seemed to have a good handle on the problems associated with Afghanistan, they mostly revolved around incompetent Civil Servants, Politicians, Policy and Generalship...
Mr R
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There no monopoly on the lessons of history
Just to balance the argument up a bit. A couple of other lessons of modern history.
Firstly, I recall visiting Bergen-Belsen Memorial a few years back and above an exhibit of photos is a quote along the lines of.."first they burn the books, next they burn the bodies.." What lessons can we learn from this dramatic, if not most dramatic, event of modern history? You may recall the Taleban was keen on book burning, religious monument destruction, persecution of minorities....
Secondly, perhaps there was merit in the idea of leaving the Taleban alone; out of sight, out of mind. However, the Taleban allowed, alternatively, actively encouraged, the establishment of Terrorist Training camps within its borders. We now know that persons trained at these camps had direct involvement in 911, perhaps the most dramatic event of the passed 10 years. Were the Taleban ever out of sight, out of mind??? Would they have been content to leave it at 911 or would they have moved on to even bigger and better things??
I am not saying the campaign in Afganistan has been a huge success, however what I am saying is there are many lessons in history and anyone can quote any lesson to support any argument
Firstly, I recall visiting Bergen-Belsen Memorial a few years back and above an exhibit of photos is a quote along the lines of.."first they burn the books, next they burn the bodies.." What lessons can we learn from this dramatic, if not most dramatic, event of modern history? You may recall the Taleban was keen on book burning, religious monument destruction, persecution of minorities....
Secondly, perhaps there was merit in the idea of leaving the Taleban alone; out of sight, out of mind. However, the Taleban allowed, alternatively, actively encouraged, the establishment of Terrorist Training camps within its borders. We now know that persons trained at these camps had direct involvement in 911, perhaps the most dramatic event of the passed 10 years. Were the Taleban ever out of sight, out of mind??? Would they have been content to leave it at 911 or would they have moved on to even bigger and better things??
I am not saying the campaign in Afganistan has been a huge success, however what I am saying is there are many lessons in history and anyone can quote any lesson to support any argument
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I am not arguing that it was wrong to go into Afg in the first instance. My argument is the opposite, we should never have turned our backs. The Americans turned their backs at the end of Russo/Afg war and look what happened as a result. We all know how fierce and proud Afg people are. The tragic mistake, in my view, was to largely ignore Afg after the Taleban had been overthrown. Afg was the centre of terror training, the country needed our help and support on a much wider scale. Instead we invaded another country! History has shown that Afghan people only tolerate foreigners for a finite amount of time. In the Last 4 years Karzai has been mayor of Kabul and that's about it. We took our eye off the ball and got sidetracked and bogged down with an unnecessary war in Iraq. That's my pennyworth anyway.......
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Last edited by nigegilb; 25th May 2006 at 14:24.
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Originally Posted by Mead Pusher
How about securing a bit of democracy back home in the UK before we start preaching to the rest of the world?!
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that's why ... the people of this country voted in favour of the war in Iraq
How many of those people would have voted for it if they actually had to attend?
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A quick quote on what happened on one of the last occasions the British Army was in Kabul.
"On January 1, 1842, the British in Kabul and a number of Afghan chiefs reached an agreement that provided for the safe exodus of the entire British garrison and its dependents from Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the British would not wait for an Afghan escort to be assembled, and the Ghilzai and allied tribes had not been among the 18 chiefs who had signed the agreement. On January 6 the precipitate retreat by some 4,500 British and Indian troops with 12,000 camp followers began and, as they struggled through the snowbound passes, Ghilzai warriors attacked the British. A Dr. W. Brydon is usually cited as the only survivor of the march to Jalalabad,out of more than 15,000 who undertook the retreat."
1 man left (and his donkey) out the 16500 who started!
"On January 1, 1842, the British in Kabul and a number of Afghan chiefs reached an agreement that provided for the safe exodus of the entire British garrison and its dependents from Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the British would not wait for an Afghan escort to be assembled, and the Ghilzai and allied tribes had not been among the 18 chiefs who had signed the agreement. On January 6 the precipitate retreat by some 4,500 British and Indian troops with 12,000 camp followers began and, as they struggled through the snowbound passes, Ghilzai warriors attacked the British. A Dr. W. Brydon is usually cited as the only survivor of the march to Jalalabad,out of more than 15,000 who undertook the retreat."
1 man left (and his donkey) out the 16500 who started!
Last edited by JTIDS; 25th May 2006 at 21:37.