WSOP PAY UPBANDING?
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With reference to mark timing, at a Secret Airbase in Hampshire, near where some old lady's roof has fallen in. The issue of mark timing was discussed with the AFPRB the other day. A FS WSOp who was promoted prior to Pay 2000 is now being paid less than a newly promoted FS in the same trade, this has happened due to a fixed mark time period. The AFPRB claimed this should never have happened and have taken the case up. Hopefully when this issue has been addressed it will open up the floodgates for the other people in the same boat to put in their claims. Perhaps if this causes enough of a stir, it might make the people at the top,think twice about placing the other NCA Trades on mark time pay.
More importantly lets just hope we get paid at the end of the month!!!
More importantly lets just hope we get paid at the end of the month!!!
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PA Spine being withdrawn?
Quote from ABIW
The latest strong rumour here is that all those expecting PA spine in the NEAR future had better think long and hard about some other sort of pension plan as that is about to be withdrawn due to cost
Are you scaremongering ABIW, do you reckon that they are going to cancel PA for WSOs in toto, or just for those not on it yet, and if so what are you basing this on?
The latest strong rumour here is that all those expecting PA spine in the NEAR future had better think long and hard about some other sort of pension plan as that is about to be withdrawn due to cost
Are you scaremongering ABIW, do you reckon that they are going to cancel PA for WSOs in toto, or just for those not on it yet, and if so what are you basing this on?
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I have heard a stong rumour that future PA for NCA is going to be scrapped, can't reveal my source but it's been pretty relaible to date. No suggestion that those currently on PA will be taken off just that no one else is going to get it
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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On a slightly diferrent tack, the cause of the WSOp (ALM) will surely not be helped by the fact that RM Cpl Aircrewmen are now being trained alongside trainee rotary WSOps at the Secret Airbase Near Shrewsbury (and a little birdy told me they're putting the light blues to shame...). EXACTLY the same course at SANS...
Could this be the thin edge of the wedge that JHC has been looking for to make all rotary WSOps Cpls? I bloody hope not.
Could this be the thin edge of the wedge that JHC has been looking for to make all rotary WSOps Cpls? I bloody hope not.
Hellbound
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PS
does kinda raise the question 'Why the difference?'. If Army cpls can do the job as suggested, why not make our NCO aircrew cpls instead of sgts? Couple of questions to consider:
1. Would the standard remain as high? (Works for the Army...)
2. Could we still recruit WSOps as NCOs? (Is recruitment bouyant at the moment? How much of that is related to pay?)
I suppose the age-old question crops up again - just why do our WSOps need to be sgts...?
This is not intended to start a fight, perhaps a discussion on the differences between the Services...
does kinda raise the question 'Why the difference?'. If Army cpls can do the job as suggested, why not make our NCO aircrew cpls instead of sgts? Couple of questions to consider:
1. Would the standard remain as high? (Works for the Army...)
2. Could we still recruit WSOps as NCOs? (Is recruitment bouyant at the moment? How much of that is related to pay?)
I suppose the age-old question crops up again - just why do our WSOps need to be sgts...?
This is not intended to start a fight, perhaps a discussion on the differences between the Services...
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Along with the downbanding of all WSOp's, loss of PA spine and the loss of the officer branch bringing in Cpl NCA makes perfect sense.
Think about it guys.
It will give new entry NCA a progressed career path, cpl, sgt, fs, wo.
Its a damn site cheaper than bringing back the officer cadre.
All the money saved can be ploughed back into pilot retention schemes.
Without an officer cadre we no longer have a say in what happens.
I certainly dont agree with the way things are going but the question is what can we do about it ?
Leave ? Well maybe thats what they want us to do.
Stay and get on with it, probably the only realistic option for the majority of guys.
Think about it guys.
It will give new entry NCA a progressed career path, cpl, sgt, fs, wo.
Its a damn site cheaper than bringing back the officer cadre.
All the money saved can be ploughed back into pilot retention schemes.
Without an officer cadre we no longer have a say in what happens.
I certainly dont agree with the way things are going but the question is what can we do about it ?
Leave ? Well maybe thats what they want us to do.
Stay and get on with it, probably the only realistic option for the majority of guys.
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My experience is solely within the SH Force and I feel that on the larger helos that the RAF utilise, whilst airborne the only interface between the front-enders and the user unit is the crewman. I feel the SH Force is better served by having SNCO crewmen as that interface than "just" Cpls; surely, your average Joe army bod would take more notice of a Sgt than a Cpl - even an officer? In my experience, with the rank comes some credibilty and assumption that he/she knows what they are doing better than a Cpl. Certainly within the Infantry units, Sgts are higly regarded and it's important (as the infantry are our major customers) to tap into that mindset.
The JNCO/SNCO argument has several facets. Pay is certainly one of them, but IMHO the authority issue of Sgt vs Cpl is an important one.
The AAC has had JNCO door gunners for years, but they have a very different role to that of the RAF and RN/RM (Air)Crewmen, and so the former and latter should be debated separately and not compared.
Nobody (I think) would deny that the job can't be done by JNCOs (the FAA have done it for some time), but the SH Force is better served by having it's crewmen as SNCOs.
The question of authority is valid and you only need to look at the AAC to see it. Until relatively recently, they employed JNCO pilots, but then changed policy to reflect that all OR pilots would be SNCOs (they train as Cpls and then stripe-up on graduation from the APC). I expect to be corrected if wrong, but JNCO vs SNCO authority was a certainly a factor.
The 4 Services will always have their single service needs and requirements, but with jointery the boundaries become blurred and single service values are eroded. The RAF should not be brow-beaten into having JNCO aircrew if it doesn't feel it to be appropriate to fulfil it's role.
PS
South Bound
The RM Cpls at the SANS are Royal Marines, NOT Army Cpls... Just want to save you from having to sleep with one eye open...
"And all real emergencies will be preceded by "Was that you?""
The JNCO/SNCO argument has several facets. Pay is certainly one of them, but IMHO the authority issue of Sgt vs Cpl is an important one.
The AAC has had JNCO door gunners for years, but they have a very different role to that of the RAF and RN/RM (Air)Crewmen, and so the former and latter should be debated separately and not compared.
Nobody (I think) would deny that the job can't be done by JNCOs (the FAA have done it for some time), but the SH Force is better served by having it's crewmen as SNCOs.
The question of authority is valid and you only need to look at the AAC to see it. Until relatively recently, they employed JNCO pilots, but then changed policy to reflect that all OR pilots would be SNCOs (they train as Cpls and then stripe-up on graduation from the APC). I expect to be corrected if wrong, but JNCO vs SNCO authority was a certainly a factor.
The 4 Services will always have their single service needs and requirements, but with jointery the boundaries become blurred and single service values are eroded. The RAF should not be brow-beaten into having JNCO aircrew if it doesn't feel it to be appropriate to fulfil it's role.
PS
South Bound
The RM Cpls at the SANS are Royal Marines, NOT Army Cpls... Just want to save you from having to sleep with one eye open...
"And all real emergencies will be preceded by "Was that you?""
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I fully agree with employing SNCO's as NCA, be it on rotary or fixed wing.
Its complete madness to go down the JNCO route, I am not agreeing with the policy but just stating the current rumours. No smoke without fire.
However does a 3rd or 4th wet aeop need to be a SNCO ? Having never served on the mighty sardine hunter I have only limited knowledge of their supervisory duties. I can understand why a fixed or rotary wing ALM needs to be SNCO due to his/her supervisory role. Technically there is little difference between the 3 branches on modern aircraft and to my mind we all have responsibilities befitting the SNCO status. However do the powers that be see it that way ? Certainly if the current rumours prove to be correct then the WSOp branch as whole is not particularly highly valued. How they can justify paying a stacker or mover more than an WSOp/ALM is beyond me. That's not to say that I don't appreciate the work that those branches do but doe they deserve to be on a higher pay band ? Perhaps it all boils down to who or rather what rank is presenting the individual trade.
On the subject of NCO pilots, its not that long ago that pilots in the RAF were SNCO's. However whilst there is little justification for all pilots to hold a commission could you really see the powers that be agreeing to a lowering in their rank structure ? I think not.
What you need to realise is that the air force is run by officers for officers, if money can be saved from the other ranks then it will be. We are only here to do the jobs that they don't want, fact of life unfortunately. How on earth do they justify having approx 1/4 of the air force being made up by officers. Have a look around your squadron and ask yourself, does that position really require and officer to the job ? If you are honest the answerer is probably no, but we have now passed the point of no return regarding man power distribution and sensibility.
Rant over.
Its complete madness to go down the JNCO route, I am not agreeing with the policy but just stating the current rumours. No smoke without fire.
However does a 3rd or 4th wet aeop need to be a SNCO ? Having never served on the mighty sardine hunter I have only limited knowledge of their supervisory duties. I can understand why a fixed or rotary wing ALM needs to be SNCO due to his/her supervisory role. Technically there is little difference between the 3 branches on modern aircraft and to my mind we all have responsibilities befitting the SNCO status. However do the powers that be see it that way ? Certainly if the current rumours prove to be correct then the WSOp branch as whole is not particularly highly valued. How they can justify paying a stacker or mover more than an WSOp/ALM is beyond me. That's not to say that I don't appreciate the work that those branches do but doe they deserve to be on a higher pay band ? Perhaps it all boils down to who or rather what rank is presenting the individual trade.
On the subject of NCO pilots, its not that long ago that pilots in the RAF were SNCO's. However whilst there is little justification for all pilots to hold a commission could you really see the powers that be agreeing to a lowering in their rank structure ? I think not.
What you need to realise is that the air force is run by officers for officers, if money can be saved from the other ranks then it will be. We are only here to do the jobs that they don't want, fact of life unfortunately. How on earth do they justify having approx 1/4 of the air force being made up by officers. Have a look around your squadron and ask yourself, does that position really require and officer to the job ? If you are honest the answerer is probably no, but we have now passed the point of no return regarding man power distribution and sensibility.
Rant over.
Last edited by WhoAreYa; 26th Apr 2006 at 14:29.
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Originally Posted by Just This Once...
I cannot recall a time when all pilots were SNCOs.
Check the history books mate.
To be honest I am not in the slightest bit interested in pilot retention, however I am interested in what happens to my own trade.
Its a shame that the RAF is no longer the attractive option that it once was but who's fault is that ?
I'm sure we could all think of examples of crass decisions that have been implemented over the last few years.
Just because its a completely crap idea doesn't mean it wont happen, take LEAN and JPA for example.
Hellbound
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Crap ideas?
Lean is a method of cutting waste out of organisations - in the RAF's case, meaning that we will still be able to do what our Lords and Masters dictate with the resource/people they are prepared to fund. It is a good idea not to have waste, but in certain circumstances the implementation might be seen to be crap...
JPA is a great idea, getting everything you need onto one piece of software, only having to input stuff once, never having to fill out NOK forms when you arrive on the Unit or having layers of beaurocracy micro-managing your claims/leave etc. Again, the implementation....
JPA is a great idea, getting everything you need onto one piece of software, only having to input stuff once, never having to fill out NOK forms when you arrive on the Unit or having layers of beaurocracy micro-managing your claims/leave etc. Again, the implementation....
Hellbound
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There is no doubt that they are ways of saving money, but that is the game we are in. If we can get rid of all the waste and beaurocracy then we can get rid of all the people we don't need and then spend the money where it is needed.
That is the theory. But like all these things, it would be lovely to do them the right way around - introduce JPA and Lean and see what savings might be made, rather then start with a target and keep going until you get there - that concept is fundamentally flawed, however necessary it might be in the modern military...
That is the theory. But like all these things, it would be lovely to do them the right way around - introduce JPA and Lean and see what savings might be made, rather then start with a target and keep going until you get there - that concept is fundamentally flawed, however necessary it might be in the modern military...
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This is clearly an emotive issue. Suffice to say that the RAF has a long tradition of SNCO Aircrew, whether employed in the front or in the back. The point (and let's get back to something approaching the thread), however, is that the Top Neddies could very well see what is going on at Shawditz as evidence that crewmen do not need to be SNCOs if the training they get is exactly the same as their RM JNCO counterparts... And surely this cannot go towards helping them achieve parity with the Engs and AEOps?
Unless of course all RM Aircrewmen are to be SNCOs in the future like their RAF counterparts as the course they do at Shawditz is exactly the same...
Just a thought.
Unless of course all RM Aircrewmen are to be SNCOs in the future like their RAF counterparts as the course they do at Shawditz is exactly the same...
Just a thought.
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Plenty of Leading Aircrewmen and Corporal Aircrewmen in the RN, and trust me they have absolutely no problem in stamping their authority airborne or otherwise.
If you don't stamp them down every now and then they try to run the Sqn!
See 771 for example.
If you don't stamp them down every now and then they try to run the Sqn!
See 771 for example.
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JTO,
Glad you put whoareya back in his box over officer pilots. As Trenchard was an officer and a pilot as was David Henderson (his RFC predecessor) that would seem to have the modern military covered. I was wondering what rank Icarus and his old man Daedalus were and if he could possibly be referring to them?
Glad you put whoareya back in his box over officer pilots. As Trenchard was an officer and a pilot as was David Henderson (his RFC predecessor) that would seem to have the modern military covered. I was wondering what rank Icarus and his old man Daedalus were and if he could possibly be referring to them?
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And there lies the problem tourist, as you say they have to be stamped on every now and then. However if it was a SNCO, the stamping may not be quite as easy to administer, and the said SNCO may be able to get his point across. The idea is that NCA can be heard and not just seen. We are an integral part of a crew and our opinions need to be heard and NOT stamped on just because an officer disagrees.