Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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Yes, a good part of the delay was indeed added in deliberately by the politicians. By way of comparison, Typhoon was delivered in 2003, some 4.5 years late and IIRC it achieved limited IOC some four years after that. Concept work on what has evolved into the Type 26 frigate (now due in service in the mid 2020s) began in 1994. What became the Type 45 destroyer was originally envisaged as entering service around 2000 but actually entered service in 2009. Nimrod MRA4 was ordered in 1996 with a planned ISD of 2003. The project was binned in 2010 by which time the ISD had slipped to 2012. You could also have some fun looking at the tale of the army's armoured vehicle plans over the last 20 years or so. At least with the carriers we are now on the cusp of gaining a couple of highly capable and flexible assets, the biggest problem to have emerged with the first vessel being a dodgy propshaft seal.
I might agree that things would ideally have moved a bit quicker but at least there's a plan that's currently on schedule to deliver. I wish we already had MPAs too but we are where we are.
Ah well. I suspect the carriers will continue to polarise opinion, especially on here, and everyone will remain pretty much where they are, however much we huff and puff from our various perspectives. Such is the way with internet fora, and indeed life in general.
Even so, my probably forlorn hope is that with the money spent and the carriers entering service people just might be prepared to get behind them a bit. Even from a light blue perspective, there are surely opportunities - especially if newer generations join up in the jointery/carrier era (and perhaps even because of the carrier era) and aren't weighed down by a "I didn't join up to float around on a boat" mentality.
For the record, I respect and understand all the various stances taken, even where I disagree with them.
Even so, my probably forlorn hope is that with the money spent and the carriers entering service people just might be prepared to get behind them a bit. Even from a light blue perspective, there are surely opportunities - especially if newer generations join up in the jointery/carrier era (and perhaps even because of the carrier era) and aren't weighed down by a "I didn't join up to float around on a boat" mentality.
For the record, I respect and understand all the various stances taken, even where I disagree with them.
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David Niven might have got away with it in "Stairway to heaven" but I'm not as attractive nor as talented so I feel the Celestial Court might not grant me the return ticket back to the surly bonds of earth..............
Thread Starter
The US Marine Corps is deploying F-35B operationally aboard ship this year (just as AV-8Bs have been conducting ship based operations in current theatres for years).
New in 2018: F-35B baptism of fire - Marine Corps Times
So will the "no aircraft for the carrier" types have the good grace to pipe down? Shipborne STOVL is well proven, carriers and other warships are proven, F-35B is being proven.
New in 2018: F-35B baptism of fire - Marine Corps Times
So will the "no aircraft for the carrier" types have the good grace to pipe down? Shipborne STOVL is well proven, carriers and other warships are proven, F-35B is being proven.
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Which as one of the main players in the development costs etc, it makes you wonder why ours are so far off when the likes of Israel have theirs operational and in squadron use.
Arguably there's a balance to be struck. Getting the airframes on stream earlier would have had to be accommodated in the budget, and that hasn't exactly been awash with spare funds. It's also true to say that the later we buy them the cheaper they get (relatively speaking of course) and the less extensive rework they need.
Ironically the current schedule represents a significant acceleration compared with pre-2015 plans. I don't think the earlier schedule was ever made fully public, but to describe it as glacial would have been an over-compliment.
I'm not saying the current plans are great, but they are where they are intended to be and there are some reasons for that. Whether you agree with them is another matter.
Originally Posted by The National Interest 29 Oct 2017
...Israel first applied to buy the F-35 in September 2008, when it requested to purchase twenty-five jets with an option for another fifty. The F-35s would fill a void created by retiring early-model F-16s. According to Defense Industry Daily, the Israelis were quoted a sticker-shock-inducing $200 million per jet. While this number came down considerably within a year to a more concerning $100 million plus, it was clear the F-35 would be a very expensive purchase for the tiny Middle Eastern country. By October 2014, Israel agreed to double its F-35 fleet to fifty aircraft.
Unlike many of the Lockheed Martin’s F-35 customers, Israel pushed for and received permission to integrate a number of local technologies into their aircraft, which was locally named the F-35I, or Adir (“Mighty”). Israel made the case that it lived in a state of near-constant conflict and this required the country’s F-35 fleet to not only stand apart logistically but technologically.
One key technology is the integration of an Israeli-developed command, control, communications, computer and intelligence (C4I) system into the Adir. The stand-alone system draws sensor data from the aircraft but otherwise does not interact with the F-35’s computer system. From there, the C4I system pushes out the data to other Israeli military assets, particularly nearby fighters, via locally made data links to help detect, prioritize and attack enemy targets...
The F-35I will also carry Israeli-designed missiles. The jet will carry defense contractor Rafael’s SPICE 1000 precision-guided bomb instead of the GPS-guided JDAM bomb. SPICE (“Smart Precise Impact Cost Effective”) 1000 is an add-on package that bolts both satellite and an electro-optical guidance systems on an unguided Mk. 83 thousand-pound bomb. This allows SPICE 1000 to not only attack targets based on GPS coordinates, but to also insert a “man in the loop” who can manually place the bomb on target—or abort the strike if necessary. SPICE 1000 can glide up to sixty-two miles to target and is so accurate it can place half of all bombs within nine feet of their target.
The F-35 will also carry the Python-5 infrared air-to-air missile instead of the American AIM-9X Sidewinder. The missile’s ability to lock on after launch means the missile can be launched from the F-35’s internal weapons bay and lock onto enemy aircraft under its own power. Another IAF requirement was also to add a pair of 425-gallon fuel tanks to the Adir that extend the plane’s total fuel—and range—by approximately 36 percent. While the addition of an external fuel tank would compromise the F-35’s stealth, a source told Aviation Week & Space Technology the fuel tank could be used during early phases of an air operation where stealth was not necessary, and jettisoned after use.
The first F-35Is arrived in Israel in late 2016, with three more jets arriving in April 2017. According to Israeli Air Force officials quoted by the Times of Israel, the remaining forty-five planes will trickle out out every few months, and the first jets should become fully operational by October 2018. Israel plans to have two squadrons stood up and fully operational by 2021 or 2022. Given that the F-35I will replace literally hundreds of early model F-15s and F-16s, a second and even third order of planes seems likely, particularly when the price comes down to the projected goal of $85 million each for the -A model.
The F-35A might not be the only variant Israel purchases. In 2015, it was revealed the country was considering adding the F-35B, the vertical-takeoff-and-landing version of the jet, to the Israeli Air Force’s inventory...
The Israeli F-35, the Adir, already stands out from the rest of the international F-35 fleet. Real-world challenges could make it stand out in other ways: given Israel’s security situation the F-35I, like the F-15A forty years earlier, could very well be the first of its kind to enter combat.
Unlike many of the Lockheed Martin’s F-35 customers, Israel pushed for and received permission to integrate a number of local technologies into their aircraft, which was locally named the F-35I, or Adir (“Mighty”). Israel made the case that it lived in a state of near-constant conflict and this required the country’s F-35 fleet to not only stand apart logistically but technologically.
One key technology is the integration of an Israeli-developed command, control, communications, computer and intelligence (C4I) system into the Adir. The stand-alone system draws sensor data from the aircraft but otherwise does not interact with the F-35’s computer system. From there, the C4I system pushes out the data to other Israeli military assets, particularly nearby fighters, via locally made data links to help detect, prioritize and attack enemy targets...
The F-35I will also carry Israeli-designed missiles. The jet will carry defense contractor Rafael’s SPICE 1000 precision-guided bomb instead of the GPS-guided JDAM bomb. SPICE (“Smart Precise Impact Cost Effective”) 1000 is an add-on package that bolts both satellite and an electro-optical guidance systems on an unguided Mk. 83 thousand-pound bomb. This allows SPICE 1000 to not only attack targets based on GPS coordinates, but to also insert a “man in the loop” who can manually place the bomb on target—or abort the strike if necessary. SPICE 1000 can glide up to sixty-two miles to target and is so accurate it can place half of all bombs within nine feet of their target.
The F-35 will also carry the Python-5 infrared air-to-air missile instead of the American AIM-9X Sidewinder. The missile’s ability to lock on after launch means the missile can be launched from the F-35’s internal weapons bay and lock onto enemy aircraft under its own power. Another IAF requirement was also to add a pair of 425-gallon fuel tanks to the Adir that extend the plane’s total fuel—and range—by approximately 36 percent. While the addition of an external fuel tank would compromise the F-35’s stealth, a source told Aviation Week & Space Technology the fuel tank could be used during early phases of an air operation where stealth was not necessary, and jettisoned after use.
The first F-35Is arrived in Israel in late 2016, with three more jets arriving in April 2017. According to Israeli Air Force officials quoted by the Times of Israel, the remaining forty-five planes will trickle out out every few months, and the first jets should become fully operational by October 2018. Israel plans to have two squadrons stood up and fully operational by 2021 or 2022. Given that the F-35I will replace literally hundreds of early model F-15s and F-16s, a second and even third order of planes seems likely, particularly when the price comes down to the projected goal of $85 million each for the -A model.
The F-35A might not be the only variant Israel purchases. In 2015, it was revealed the country was considering adding the F-35B, the vertical-takeoff-and-landing version of the jet, to the Israeli Air Force’s inventory...
The Israeli F-35, the Adir, already stands out from the rest of the international F-35 fleet. Real-world challenges could make it stand out in other ways: given Israel’s security situation the F-35I, like the F-15A forty years earlier, could very well be the first of its kind to enter combat.