Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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So will the "no aircraft for the carrier" types have the good grace to pipe down?
When there are aircraft for the UK carriers, we will. The Marine aircraft in the story are part of a small batch of Block 2B aircraft with the now-superseded TR1 processor, a configuration which was never available for anyone except the USMC and that has not undergone formal IOT&E. The UK and other partners have to wait for the Block 3F/TR2 to be tested.
NL - Israel got a different deal because they demanded it as a condition for buying the jet, and as FP's story notes, they are paying for different (and valuable) capabilities that other partners could not get even if they covered the costs. The other users have acquiesced to the plans made by the DoD, in which they have a minority vote. Frostchamber is right in saying that earlier deliveries would have cost more.
When there are aircraft for the UK carriers, we will. The Marine aircraft in the story are part of a small batch of Block 2B aircraft with the now-superseded TR1 processor, a configuration which was never available for anyone except the USMC and that has not undergone formal IOT&E. The UK and other partners have to wait for the Block 3F/TR2 to be tested.
NL - Israel got a different deal because they demanded it as a condition for buying the jet, and as FP's story notes, they are paying for different (and valuable) capabilities that other partners could not get even if they covered the costs. The other users have acquiesced to the plans made by the DoD, in which they have a minority vote. Frostchamber is right in saying that earlier deliveries would have cost more.
When there are aircraft for the UK carriers, we will. The Marine aircraft in the story are part of a small batch of Block 2B aircraft with the now-superseded TR1 processor, a configuration which was never available for anyone except the USMC and that has not undergone formal IOT&E. The UK and other partners have to wait for the Block 3F/TR2 to be tested...
Originally Posted by UK Defence Journal 29 Nov 2017
...The next phase between 2017 and 2020 will be critical to establishing carrier strike capability. The MoD must bring together the carriers, Lightning jets, and Crowsnest with trained crews and supporting infrastructure, logistics, communications and surveillance capabilities...
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from FodPlod's link:
Captain Jerry Kyd, commander of HMS Queen Elizabeth, commented on the initial deployment and the gradual increase in air wing numbers:
“We’re constrained by the F-35 buy-rate even though that was accelerated in SDSR in 2015, so initial operating capability numbers in 2020 are going to be very modest indeed. We will flesh it out with helicopters, and a lot depends on how many USMC F-35s come on our first deployment in 2021. But by 2023, we are committed to 24 UK jets onboard, and after that it’s too far away to say.”
Interesting indeed that the schedule was slower pre-SDSR15. I recall that in public the people responsible for the carriers and UK F-35 were reticent about both the UK's timetable and the USMC participation; I don't think the two stories would have been received well at the time. I believe the current plan syncs with the rest of the "block buy".
Captain Jerry Kyd, commander of HMS Queen Elizabeth, commented on the initial deployment and the gradual increase in air wing numbers:
“We’re constrained by the F-35 buy-rate even though that was accelerated in SDSR in 2015, so initial operating capability numbers in 2020 are going to be very modest indeed. We will flesh it out with helicopters, and a lot depends on how many USMC F-35s come on our first deployment in 2021. But by 2023, we are committed to 24 UK jets onboard, and after that it’s too far away to say.”
Interesting indeed that the schedule was slower pre-SDSR15. I recall that in public the people responsible for the carriers and UK F-35 were reticent about both the UK's timetable and the USMC participation; I don't think the two stories would have been received well at the time. I believe the current plan syncs with the rest of the "block buy".
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Surely the questions that needs to be answered here is: -
When will the UK have a number of F35Bs with 3F software or above, including the technical refresh?
The concept of SRVL has been proven to enable higher weight bring back
The ALIS system has been proven to work with 3F or above software.
And all necessary people have been trained to use the F35B on land first then at sea?
When will the UK have a number of F35Bs with 3F software or above, including the technical refresh?
The concept of SRVL has been proven to enable higher weight bring back
The ALIS system has been proven to work with 3F or above software.
And all necessary people have been trained to use the F35B on land first then at sea?
...Interesting indeed that the schedule was slower pre-SDSR15. I recall that in public the people responsible for the carriers and UK F-35 were reticent about both the UK's timetable and the USMC participation; I don't think the two stories would have been received well at the time. I believe the current plan syncs with the rest of the "block buy".
Originally Posted by UK Gov website 5 Feb 2016
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Carrier journey
And none of this journey and outcome happens by accident. SDSR 2015 was a huge team effort across the Royal Navy, and defence. Yet the seeds were sown many years ago, decades ago in fact. It’s down in no small part to the strategic foresight and steadiness under fire of the men who have stood in my place, and all those who supported them, many of whom are here tonight. And while there have been setbacks along that journey, too often the focus was on what was lost, when it should have been on what was retained. Because the navy of tomorrow is born out of the navy of today; and our case was reinforced, year-after-year, by our sailors and marines on operations, demonstrating what we offer the nation. Nothing is more reflective of this truth than our carrier journey.
This year, this month, marks the fiftieth anniversary of Denis Healy’s seminal 1966 defence white paper, which cancelled the CVA-01 carrier project. 50 years. Some thought, perhaps hoped, it would mark the end of British carrier based air power. Yet there followed in the 1970s perhaps some of the most imaginative staff work the Ministry of Defence has ever seen as 3 “through-deck cruisers” slowly, quietly, evolved into small aircraft carriers. And so began what Nick Childs aptly termed “the Age of Invincible”: 3 decades of carrier operations: in the Falklands, followed by Bosnia, the Gulf, Kosovo, and Sierra Leone. Indeed, those who argue that the Queen Elizabeth class carriers are too big, fail to appreciate that their size was determined precisely because of experience gained through back-to-back operations in the 80s and 90s.
It’s now 18 years since George Robertson stood up in Parliament and set this project in train. It’s not been an easy journey since then. There were a few moments when it was frankly touch-and-go. Plenty of people predicted they wouldn’t be built, or that they would suck the rest of the navy dry. Even 5 years ago, we had commentators helpfully suggesting that the Libya intervention was evidence yet again that we could rely on land based air power for future operations. Not only had they forgotten the lessons of 1982, but they seemed not to notice when France and Italy deployed their carriers, despite having airfields within easy reach, or our own brilliant creative use of HMS Ocean for Apache strike, which once again showed that the navy does not let the nation down.
And just look at where we are today. In the United States, the first squadron of US Marine Corps F35Bs is operational, with UK personnel alongside them every step of the way. This summer you’ll see the F35 in UK skies. Get used to the sight because many more are coming our way. Meanwhile, in the Gulf, our frigates and destroyers have been working with US and French carriers. Our people have been integrated with theirs; in both cases honing the skills that will serve our own carrier centric future.
And then in Rosyth, HMS Queen Elizabeth’s diesel generators and gas turbines are up and running. Her radars are turning and burning. She is alive. Prince of Wales is catching up fast: now structurally complete; the first members of her Ship’s Company joined last month. HMS Queen Elizabeth’s sails from Rosyth later this year. It will be a great day for the Royal Navy. It’s the day when the ghosts of 1966, and 1981, are finally laid to rest. The 50 year circle will be closing. But as you will appreciate, to view these 2 ships as a mere replacement for the Invincible class, or a return to the halcyon days of fast jet carrier operations in the 60s and 70s, is to underestimate entirely what they represent in both practical and symbolic terms.
From the mid-2020s the UK, already one of only three nations to maintain a Continuous At Sea Deterrent, will become one of an equally select few to wield a Continuous Carrier Capability. Indeed, it was telling that it was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who announced that more jets would be ordered sooner than expected to “step up the carrier punch of the United Kingdom”. These ships symbolise our military strength, our engineering and technical ability, our global economic ambition and our international authority.
So thank you. Through the years we’ve stuck to our course. We’ve quietly and persistently made the case… well, perhaps not always quietly… There is now a huge amount of work in the years ahead. But the Royal Navy is heading forward at full steam to where we belong, back as a big deck carrier operator; back at the heart of our nation’s defence; back to the front rank of maritime powers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Carrier journey
And none of this journey and outcome happens by accident. SDSR 2015 was a huge team effort across the Royal Navy, and defence. Yet the seeds were sown many years ago, decades ago in fact. It’s down in no small part to the strategic foresight and steadiness under fire of the men who have stood in my place, and all those who supported them, many of whom are here tonight. And while there have been setbacks along that journey, too often the focus was on what was lost, when it should have been on what was retained. Because the navy of tomorrow is born out of the navy of today; and our case was reinforced, year-after-year, by our sailors and marines on operations, demonstrating what we offer the nation. Nothing is more reflective of this truth than our carrier journey.
This year, this month, marks the fiftieth anniversary of Denis Healy’s seminal 1966 defence white paper, which cancelled the CVA-01 carrier project. 50 years. Some thought, perhaps hoped, it would mark the end of British carrier based air power. Yet there followed in the 1970s perhaps some of the most imaginative staff work the Ministry of Defence has ever seen as 3 “through-deck cruisers” slowly, quietly, evolved into small aircraft carriers. And so began what Nick Childs aptly termed “the Age of Invincible”: 3 decades of carrier operations: in the Falklands, followed by Bosnia, the Gulf, Kosovo, and Sierra Leone. Indeed, those who argue that the Queen Elizabeth class carriers are too big, fail to appreciate that their size was determined precisely because of experience gained through back-to-back operations in the 80s and 90s.
It’s now 18 years since George Robertson stood up in Parliament and set this project in train. It’s not been an easy journey since then. There were a few moments when it was frankly touch-and-go. Plenty of people predicted they wouldn’t be built, or that they would suck the rest of the navy dry. Even 5 years ago, we had commentators helpfully suggesting that the Libya intervention was evidence yet again that we could rely on land based air power for future operations. Not only had they forgotten the lessons of 1982, but they seemed not to notice when France and Italy deployed their carriers, despite having airfields within easy reach, or our own brilliant creative use of HMS Ocean for Apache strike, which once again showed that the navy does not let the nation down.
And just look at where we are today. In the United States, the first squadron of US Marine Corps F35Bs is operational, with UK personnel alongside them every step of the way. This summer you’ll see the F35 in UK skies. Get used to the sight because many more are coming our way. Meanwhile, in the Gulf, our frigates and destroyers have been working with US and French carriers. Our people have been integrated with theirs; in both cases honing the skills that will serve our own carrier centric future.
And then in Rosyth, HMS Queen Elizabeth’s diesel generators and gas turbines are up and running. Her radars are turning and burning. She is alive. Prince of Wales is catching up fast: now structurally complete; the first members of her Ship’s Company joined last month. HMS Queen Elizabeth’s sails from Rosyth later this year. It will be a great day for the Royal Navy. It’s the day when the ghosts of 1966, and 1981, are finally laid to rest. The 50 year circle will be closing. But as you will appreciate, to view these 2 ships as a mere replacement for the Invincible class, or a return to the halcyon days of fast jet carrier operations in the 60s and 70s, is to underestimate entirely what they represent in both practical and symbolic terms.
From the mid-2020s the UK, already one of only three nations to maintain a Continuous At Sea Deterrent, will become one of an equally select few to wield a Continuous Carrier Capability. Indeed, it was telling that it was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who announced that more jets would be ordered sooner than expected to “step up the carrier punch of the United Kingdom”. These ships symbolise our military strength, our engineering and technical ability, our global economic ambition and our international authority.
So thank you. Through the years we’ve stuck to our course. We’ve quietly and persistently made the case… well, perhaps not always quietly… There is now a huge amount of work in the years ahead. But the Royal Navy is heading forward at full steam to where we belong, back as a big deck carrier operator; back at the heart of our nation’s defence; back to the front rank of maritime powers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
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"These ships symbolise our military strength, our engineering and technical ability, our global economic ambition and our international authority."
Any one like to place best on how many days at sea they'll be averaging in 2024?
Any one like to place best on how many days at sea they'll be averaging in 2024?
If the situation dictates, I imagine that QNLZ and PWLS will be capable of spending at least as long at sea as their world record-breaking predecessor HMS INVINCIBLE which operated for 166 continuous days at sea (and more besides) in 1982. However, high readiness states don't necessarily mean that a ship has to be at sea continuously; even sailors have a right to visit their families occasionally.
I suppose it's too late to suggest that you and @glad rag (there's irony for you) plus one or two others resolve to stop overdosing on anti-QEC/F-35 grumpy pills but Happy New Year anyway.
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If I was a real pessimist I'd be running a book on who we'd have sold them to by 2024.................
I'm not against them per se - it's just I think its an unnecessary diversion of much needed resources from what we really need - more SSn's, the SSBN replacement, more T26's, an "Ocean " replacement
AND the sailors to man them all properly
I'm not against them per se - it's just I think its an unnecessary diversion of much needed resources from what we really need - more SSn's, the SSBN replacement, more T26's, an "Ocean " replacement
AND the sailors to man them all properly
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What do you know about the world situation in 2024 that no one else does and how will the carrier(s) need to be configured for it?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say "Probably at least as much as someone who thinks a CAS ingress gets flown at Mach 1.6".
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say "Probably at least as much as someone who thinks a CAS ingress gets flown at Mach 1.6".
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As a once anti-carrier chap, I now accept the status quo and sincerely hope that the entire system will become operationally competent, eventually. As importantly, I wish the ship's complement a safe, successful and well-remunerated existence.
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CAS is supplied by who’s available, when, what the hostile environment is, and what specifically for.
Thread Starter
Preparations continue: HMS Queen Elizabeth gets ready for sea trials
During the two days embarked package the Merlin was used to verify many of the flight deck and hangar facilities by connecting up to the ship’s onboard electrical supply cables and refueling hoses, as well as test the important ‘Telebrief’ system which will enable Flying Control – ‘FLYCO’ – to communicate with each aircraft whilst on deck.
It also gave the firefighting and rescue crews a chance to practice emergency drills and skills necessary to operating safely at sea, when time is of the essence on a busy carrier deck.
“Completing ‘SAT (Air)’ is crucial to getting the Ship ready to operate the whole spectrum of aircraft that we will be working with in the future,” continued Lt Cdr Cobbett.
“Introducing the Ship to aviation and aviation to the Ship is all part of the learning structure we are going through.
"We are taking it slowly at first before we embark whole squadrons of rotary and fixed wing aircraft.”
HMS Queen Elizabeth will sail from her home port for rotary wing trial at sea in the coming weeks, where she will undergo deck trials with Royal Navy Merlin helicopters.
Later this year fixed wing trials will begin with the F35B in the summer.
During the two days embarked package the Merlin was used to verify many of the flight deck and hangar facilities by connecting up to the ship’s onboard electrical supply cables and refueling hoses, as well as test the important ‘Telebrief’ system which will enable Flying Control – ‘FLYCO’ – to communicate with each aircraft whilst on deck.
It also gave the firefighting and rescue crews a chance to practice emergency drills and skills necessary to operating safely at sea, when time is of the essence on a busy carrier deck.
“Completing ‘SAT (Air)’ is crucial to getting the Ship ready to operate the whole spectrum of aircraft that we will be working with in the future,” continued Lt Cdr Cobbett.
“Introducing the Ship to aviation and aviation to the Ship is all part of the learning structure we are going through.
"We are taking it slowly at first before we embark whole squadrons of rotary and fixed wing aircraft.”
HMS Queen Elizabeth will sail from her home port for rotary wing trial at sea in the coming weeks, where she will undergo deck trials with Royal Navy Merlin helicopters.
Later this year fixed wing trials will begin with the F35B in the summer.
Thread Starter
Carrier Strike operations a step closer for Royal Navy
Another milestone has been reached in the UK’s return to carrier strike operations.
Personnel from five Royal Navy ships took part in the latest validation exercise, learning how to work as part of a battlegroup with the nation’s new aircraft carriers.
The UK Carrier Strike Group exercise was run by the US Navy and involved the French, Danish and German navies.
As well as personnel from HMS Queen Elizabeth, members of the ships’ companies from Prince of Wales, Type 45 destroyer’s HMS Dragon and Diamond and Type 23 frigate HMS Montrose, also took part.
Destroyers and frigates will be escorts for both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales when they deploy.
The Multi-National Fleet Synthetic Training Group Command Exercise was run from the Maritime Composite Training System site at HMS Collingwood.
One thing that cannot be simulated by synthetic environments is the practicality of having jets on deck.
Another milestone has been reached in the UK’s return to carrier strike operations.
Personnel from five Royal Navy ships took part in the latest validation exercise, learning how to work as part of a battlegroup with the nation’s new aircraft carriers.
The UK Carrier Strike Group exercise was run by the US Navy and involved the French, Danish and German navies.
As well as personnel from HMS Queen Elizabeth, members of the ships’ companies from Prince of Wales, Type 45 destroyer’s HMS Dragon and Diamond and Type 23 frigate HMS Montrose, also took part.
Destroyers and frigates will be escorts for both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales when they deploy.
The Multi-National Fleet Synthetic Training Group Command Exercise was run from the Maritime Composite Training System site at HMS Collingwood.
One thing that cannot be simulated by synthetic environments is the practicality of having jets on deck.
I spent most of the day at the F.A.A. museum at Yeovilton on Friday. Excellent if peoples are considering a visit. There are two models (amongst several others of different ships) of the new aircraft carriers there. I've obviously missed something in the discussion. One has a ski-jump, the other doesn't.
Eh?
Eh?
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QE Carrier
Phil,
The two models of the new carrier in the FAAM date from the stage in the programme where two variants were still being considered. One with catapults and arresting gear, the other a STOVL design with a ski jump. The models have recently arrived and as yet don’t have the intended signage to explain this to the visitor.
I know a couple of folks at the FAAM and will try to ensure that the signs go up soonest.
Best regards as ever to all those visiting the FAA Museum.
Engines
The two models of the new carrier in the FAAM date from the stage in the programme where two variants were still being considered. One with catapults and arresting gear, the other a STOVL design with a ski jump. The models have recently arrived and as yet don’t have the intended signage to explain this to the visitor.
I know a couple of folks at the FAAM and will try to ensure that the signs go up soonest.
Best regards as ever to all those visiting the FAA Museum.
Engines
I spent most of the day at the F.A.A. museum at Yeovilton on Friday. Excellent if peoples are considering a visit. There are two models (amongst several others of different ships) of the new aircraft carriers there. I've obviously missed something in the discussion. One has a ski-jump, the other doesn't.
Eh?
Eh?
Last edited by Engines; 22nd Jan 2018 at 09:09. Reason: Correct mistake
Thread Starter
I have not been to the FAA Museum for over twenty five years. How much do they cover such things as the involvement of the whole ship in making naval aviation work? What about things like the development of things like landing aids, or other technologies?
landing aids
