Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 501
Likes: 91
From: UK
WEBF - the carriers certainly made a contribution to the listed conflicts but, TBH , they were only NECESSARY for the FI
They're a nice to have rather than a necessity - I'd far prefer more T45's, T26's, Astutes and some decent replacements for the Bulwark/Ocean fleet
They're a nice to have rather than a necessity - I'd far prefer more T45's, T26's, Astutes and some decent replacements for the Bulwark/Ocean fleet
Escorts' main job is to escort and protect themselves and other assets. I guess a lot turns on what you want the UK to be capable of, and whether you value the ability to carry your air power and air cover with you, or whether you're happy to depend on air cover from land bases or kindly provided by others. And content to have lots of escorts that are good at turning up but far more limited in terms of the military effect they can deliver.
I guess this argument will rage forever, because in reality peoples' views on such things don't tend to shift that much.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,056
Likes: 2
From: London
Escorts' main job is to escort and protect themselves and other assets. I guess a lot turns on what you want the UK to be capable of, and whether you value the ability to carry your air power and air cover with you, or whether you're happy to depend on air cover from land bases or kindly provided by others. And content to have lots of escorts that are good at turning up but far more limited in terms of the military effect they can deliver.
I guess this argument will rage forever, because in reality peoples' views on such things don't tend to shift that much.
I guess this argument will rage forever, because in reality peoples' views on such things don't tend to shift that much.
Agreed - we're unlikely to agree - but I think CASH will be the main determinant whatever we would want......................
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
'Heathrow Hairy' I thought someone would ask me that but no - no summary will be provided. Meanwhile TWO is a crowd sourced number of CVFs artickle with this info about QE testin'. QE is ONLY mentioned at end of video in context that 'a SUPER CARRIER' helped the QE crew qualify recently.
"...The future for HMS Queen Elizabeth 08 Sep 2017
HMS Queen Elizabeth should sail for the second phase of her sea trials in October and will formally commission in December. She will sail for heavy weather trials in the North Atlantic in the first quarter of 2018. During this time she will also focus on rotary-wing certification and trials with embarked Wildcats, Merlin Mk2s, Merlin HC4s, Army Air Corps Apache and RAF Chinooks. HMS QE will not be fully capable in the LPH role for several years but she will routinely embark Royal Marines of the Special Purpose Task Group. The SPTG was established in December 2015, its prime role is to rescue downed aircrew and destroy or recover sensitive equipment such as F-35 parts. However, the SPTG is a multi-purpose formation that can be used to support other special forces operations or conduct raids ashore.
HMS QE will be back alongside for a further planned “defect rectification and capability insertion” period in mid-2018. The main work will be adding equipment to support F-35 operations such as the Instrument Carrier Landing System (ICLS) and set up ALIS – the F-35 aircraft maintenance system. In the later part of 2018 HMS QE will sail with HMS Montrose as her escort to the East Coast of the US. She will embark Royal Marines who will be flown ashore to exercise with the US Marine Corps. Off the Eastern Seaboard of the US, the first F-35Bs will land on HMS QE to begin flying trials. Two specially instrumented “orange-wired” F-35B test aircraft and four pilots will be aboard for 8 weeks of trials and evaluation. Short Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) will be practiced for the first time outside a simulator. This complex manoeuvre will allow the aircraft to return safely to the ship with a weight of unused weapons or fuel. The technique is controversial, many F-35 naysayers expect it to prove unworkable.
As something we can all look forward to, respected film-maker Chris Terrill has been embarked aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth during her sea trials and his 3-part documentary Royal Navy: Carrier Strike will be shown on BBC 2 in January 2018." http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-...er-capability/
HMS Queen Elizabeth should sail for the second phase of her sea trials in October and will formally commission in December. She will sail for heavy weather trials in the North Atlantic in the first quarter of 2018. During this time she will also focus on rotary-wing certification and trials with embarked Wildcats, Merlin Mk2s, Merlin HC4s, Army Air Corps Apache and RAF Chinooks. HMS QE will not be fully capable in the LPH role for several years but she will routinely embark Royal Marines of the Special Purpose Task Group. The SPTG was established in December 2015, its prime role is to rescue downed aircrew and destroy or recover sensitive equipment such as F-35 parts. However, the SPTG is a multi-purpose formation that can be used to support other special forces operations or conduct raids ashore.
HMS QE will be back alongside for a further planned “defect rectification and capability insertion” period in mid-2018. The main work will be adding equipment to support F-35 operations such as the Instrument Carrier Landing System (ICLS) and set up ALIS – the F-35 aircraft maintenance system. In the later part of 2018 HMS QE will sail with HMS Montrose as her escort to the East Coast of the US. She will embark Royal Marines who will be flown ashore to exercise with the US Marine Corps. Off the Eastern Seaboard of the US, the first F-35Bs will land on HMS QE to begin flying trials. Two specially instrumented “orange-wired” F-35B test aircraft and four pilots will be aboard for 8 weeks of trials and evaluation. Short Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) will be practiced for the first time outside a simulator. This complex manoeuvre will allow the aircraft to return safely to the ship with a weight of unused weapons or fuel. The technique is controversial, many F-35 naysayers expect it to prove unworkable.
As something we can all look forward to, respected film-maker Chris Terrill has been embarked aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth during her sea trials and his 3-part documentary Royal Navy: Carrier Strike will be shown on BBC 2 in January 2018." http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-...er-capability/
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 54
From: virginia, USA
Agree, not too graceful in lines, and the island and masts just look strange. I am used to seeing more radars, masts and other gear. Now the massive "flashlight" radar on the HERMES sure looked the part.
And the side sponsons are much more massive than I realized. May take quite a pounding at full load in rough seas.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: UK
. And being told that the new carriers and aircraft were due to be in service by 2012!
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
Never had NATO/OTAN experience however this article may be useful to some (and of course best wishes for occasional RAAF F-35B embarkation on RAN LHDs some time in the far future (around 2025?): (perhaps some RAAFie Chappies will read this?)
F-35B Will Change NATO Amphib Ops Proceedings Magazine - September 2017 Vol. 143/9/1,375
Captain William A. Perkins, U.S. Navy https://www.usni.org/print/91547 OR https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...ato-amphib-ops
F-35B Will Change NATO Amphib Ops Proceedings Magazine - September 2017 Vol. 143/9/1,375
Captain William A. Perkins, U.S. Navy https://www.usni.org/print/91547 OR https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...ato-amphib-ops
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,967
Likes: 100
From: Devon
A carrier related idea to help with STEM education:
I understand the three services each have a SO2 STEM engagement - including the RN. Perhaps carrier landings provide an excellent idea for a project for Schools/Colleges and kids interested (or not) in Maths/Physics/the Navy... land a UAV on a moving deck.
1. Use trailer pulled by lorry/tractor to simulate moving deck. A more sophisticated version could use some sort of raft being pulled along the length of a swimming pool.
2. Use cheap fixed wing remote control model aircraft to simulate the recovering aircraft. I assume there is a camera in the nose, and then the operator is looking to land on a small area.
3. The students get to devise a visual landing aid - light(s) and a tilted mirror, or perhaps just lights. I have no idea if there is any Optics in GCSE Physics these days - there was not when I did GCSEs, but this would cover topics such as:
Pythagoras' theorem
The trigonometry of the right angled triangle
Lighting
Electrical circuit basics (Ohms law, power, resistance in series/parallel)
Algebra
4. For some more fun, they get to paint the deck with something that causes friction so the still moving 'drone' comes to a halt in the shortest possible distance. Topics covered include:
Friction
Newtonian Law of Motion
Algebra
5. They then write a report, and do a presentation to the class, teachers, parents, etc. This would be an opportunity to practise English language skills (writing for a purpose, learning to present ideas, and getting up and talking). ICT could be part of it as well.
6. Aside from the Physics/Maths/English/ICT aspects, the kids will hopefully benefit from working as a team, and learning that any sort of project requires people with different abilities - the ones who can do the calculations and theoretical work, the practically gifted ones who are good with their hands, ones to plan and organise, ones to do the written work, and ones to get up and talk.
7. The RN gets some PR, and maybe gets some future recruits interested.
I understand the three services each have a SO2 STEM engagement - including the RN. Perhaps carrier landings provide an excellent idea for a project for Schools/Colleges and kids interested (or not) in Maths/Physics/the Navy... land a UAV on a moving deck.
1. Use trailer pulled by lorry/tractor to simulate moving deck. A more sophisticated version could use some sort of raft being pulled along the length of a swimming pool.
2. Use cheap fixed wing remote control model aircraft to simulate the recovering aircraft. I assume there is a camera in the nose, and then the operator is looking to land on a small area.
3. The students get to devise a visual landing aid - light(s) and a tilted mirror, or perhaps just lights. I have no idea if there is any Optics in GCSE Physics these days - there was not when I did GCSEs, but this would cover topics such as:
Pythagoras' theorem
The trigonometry of the right angled triangle
Lighting
Electrical circuit basics (Ohms law, power, resistance in series/parallel)
Algebra
4. For some more fun, they get to paint the deck with something that causes friction so the still moving 'drone' comes to a halt in the shortest possible distance. Topics covered include:
Friction
Newtonian Law of Motion
Algebra
5. They then write a report, and do a presentation to the class, teachers, parents, etc. This would be an opportunity to practise English language skills (writing for a purpose, learning to present ideas, and getting up and talking). ICT could be part of it as well.
6. Aside from the Physics/Maths/English/ICT aspects, the kids will hopefully benefit from working as a team, and learning that any sort of project requires people with different abilities - the ones who can do the calculations and theoretical work, the practically gifted ones who are good with their hands, ones to plan and organise, ones to do the written work, and ones to get up and talk.
7. The RN gets some PR, and maybe gets some future recruits interested.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 761
Likes: 0
From: UK
Will there be lady officers and other ranks on board? One hopes the chaps will behave.
Second officer removed for alleged improper relationship with female colleague on scandal-hit submarine
Second officer removed for alleged improper relationship with female colleague on scandal-hit submarine
Second officer removed for alleged improper relationship with female colleague on scandal-hit submarine
Second officer removed for alleged improper relationship with female colleague on scandal-hit submarine
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,967
Likes: 100
From: Devon
The Americans also have a carrier themed STEM project for schools....
When does Queen Elizabeth start her next phase of sea trials?
When does Queen Elizabeth start her next phase of sea trials?
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
The Americans also have a carrier themed STEM project for schools....
When does Queen Elizabeth start her next phase of sea trials?
When does Queen Elizabeth start her next phase of sea trials?
"..."...The future for HMS Queen Elizabeth 08 Sep 2017
HMS Queen Elizabeth should sail for the second phase of her sea trials in October [2017] and will formally commission in December...." HMS Prince of Wales formally named ? another step towards renewing aircraft carrier capability | Save the Royal Navy
HMS Queen Elizabeth should sail for the second phase of her sea trials in October [2017] and will formally commission in December...." HMS Prince of Wales formally named ? another step towards renewing aircraft carrier capability | Save the Royal Navy
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
From: England
Bigpants it twas ever thus mate, these stories have always gone on - they help pay the way of the hacks that write them. Speaking of rags, the Daily Telegraph is reporting that it has quoutes from MOD sources that the big UK carrier is being planned in to be possibly involved in operations against North Korea. I don't pay to read the Telegraph, this was via MSN. One way or another someone is leaking out a possibility of RN military involvement.
In all ways, utterly disgraceful.
In all ways, utterly disgraceful.
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
From: England's green and pleasant land
Bigpants it twas ever thus mate, these stories have always gone on - they help pay the way of the hacks that write them. Speaking of rags, the Daily Telegraph is reporting that it has quoutes from MOD sources that the big UK carrier is being planned in to be possibly involved in operations against North Korea. I don't pay to read the Telegraph, this was via MSN. One way or another someone is leaking out a possibility of RN military involvement.
In all ways, utterly disgraceful.
In all ways, utterly disgraceful.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,510
Likes: 7,255
From: Peripatetic
Doubts over delivery of Lockheed Martin F-35 jets
Britain’s next generation of fast jets are less likely to be delivered as planned because of concerns over simulators, software and weapons.
The Ministry of Defence has lowered a confidence rating on the delivery of the F-35 Lightning II programme to amber/red, from amber in June, the government’s spending watchdog said. The change is significant for a project costing billions of pounds. The F-35B jets are due to fly from the Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers, with the first aircraft due to operate from HMS Queen Elizabeth by the end of 2020.
The National Audit Office (NAO) produced a three-page note for the parliamentary public accounts committee, which is examining the government’s management of the overall programme to deliver aircraft carriers and F-35 jets. The “supplementary memorandum” was published yesterday afternoon.
The MoD told the NAO that the programme remained on time and on budget but the official in charge had revised his “delivery confidence”, it said. “This reflected concerns that simulators to train UK pilots would not be representative of the UK aircraft standard, that there were delays to providing UK-specific software programming, and that the schedule to deliver the UK weapons programme required further work,” the NAO said........
Britain’s next generation of fast jets are less likely to be delivered as planned because of concerns over simulators, software and weapons.
The Ministry of Defence has lowered a confidence rating on the delivery of the F-35 Lightning II programme to amber/red, from amber in June, the government’s spending watchdog said. The change is significant for a project costing billions of pounds. The F-35B jets are due to fly from the Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers, with the first aircraft due to operate from HMS Queen Elizabeth by the end of 2020.
The National Audit Office (NAO) produced a three-page note for the parliamentary public accounts committee, which is examining the government’s management of the overall programme to deliver aircraft carriers and F-35 jets. The “supplementary memorandum” was published yesterday afternoon.
The MoD told the NAO that the programme remained on time and on budget but the official in charge had revised his “delivery confidence”, it said. “This reflected concerns that simulators to train UK pilots would not be representative of the UK aircraft standard, that there were delays to providing UK-specific software programming, and that the schedule to deliver the UK weapons programme required further work,” the NAO said........
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 301
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From: South Skerry
Britain’s next generation of fast jets are less likely to be delivered as planned because of concerns over simulators, software and weapons.
Well, poop. Now wait ten seconds for the fans to tell us that these are the normal issues to be expected with the delivery of a game-changing superwonderweapon, and so on and so forth.
Which of course they are. It takes time and money to update sims &c and there is a tendency to lag changes in the platform, because Mr Sim PM likes to wait until the changes have been tested before he spends his own budget.
However, the fact that these problems are common doesn't mean they were insoluble had they been addressed at the right time, and it does mean that they could and should have been anticipated.
Well, poop. Now wait ten seconds for the fans to tell us that these are the normal issues to be expected with the delivery of a game-changing superwonderweapon, and so on and so forth.
Which of course they are. It takes time and money to update sims &c and there is a tendency to lag changes in the platform, because Mr Sim PM likes to wait until the changes have been tested before he spends his own budget.
However, the fact that these problems are common doesn't mean they were insoluble had they been addressed at the right time, and it does mean that they could and should have been anticipated.
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,978
Likes: 175
From: Australia OZ
All the good NAO goss here: Written evidence - National Audit Office
I'm wondering (because FMS are updated with latest software release soon as) IF the Brit FMS requires extra updating - due soon to be tested next year off East Coast USofA - with SRVL details? FMS = Full Mission Simulator
I'm wondering (because FMS are updated with latest software release soon as) IF the Brit FMS requires extra updating - due soon to be tested next year off East Coast USofA - with SRVL details? FMS = Full Mission Simulator