Blair To 'Tough it Out' On Iraq

[eagle 86]

Don't worry NC43, JS2 passed a similar comment to me a couple of posts ago - I think the poor chap suffers from dyslexia!
GAGS
E86

[JessTheDog]

You are clearly a very brave fellow spouting off to your chums in the mess and in the pub. I suggest you write directly to the prime minister with all your allegations and then attach a distribution list to the various organs of government and newspapers you claim to have written to I suggest the Telegraph, Times and Guardian...then sit back and see what happens...no point in bravely telling your chums in the mess what a liar he is (they probably all agree anyway).

I'm personally not certain whether he has told the truth, or not. I cannot prove it and I suspect neither can you. Therefore, I remain silent on the matter. You can prove he is a liar, can you?

I have the standard bit of paper from Downing Street (1 line of text on reasurringly expensive A5 notepaper)to prove that my views on the issue of Iraq (I believe the words "deceit" and "mendacity" were used) submitted in late 2004 have been "considered". Not much happens, likewise when one's views are published in the press (incuding name and address). Somehow I can't see Bliar rushing to devend his reputation in the courts...he wouldn't be able to appoint a tame judge for a start.

Bliar = liar

[Biggus]

Various ministers (I am not specifically including the PM in this case) in the Labour Governments of the past 10 years (and no doubt the Tory ones before it) have been 'proven' (usually as the result of newspaper investigations/leaks by their staff, etc) to have 'misled parliament' - for which read been caught LYING!! They usually get a slapped wrist, say it wasn't intentional, and carry on as normal.

It is my opinion that the general public's 'perception' (and I choose that word deliberately) is that politicians are like submariners! (How do you tell when a submariner is lying? His lips are moving!!!) Episodes like the Mandelson, Blunkett, Jowell affairs (Cherie Blairs flat 'deal' in Bristol), cash for peerages,Tory sleaze pre 1997 (Archer, etc), all add to this 'perception' and erode the public's respect for the political process, decrease turnout at elections, etc.

While Tony Blair may or may not have lied, and I am not commenting either way, I am sure many of the public today believe (rightly or wrongly) he is as capable of doing so as any other politician!

[nutcracker43]

Jetstars 2

Originally Posted by jstars2

nutcracker43
I’d like to reply to you properly but your words of 30 March are a little bit impenetrable for me: ''When I made any decision it was made on the basis of information available to me at the time...certainly the slant has changed and the decisions taken have been interpreted differently because of different information being received. This will continue as and when more information is received...your post would suggest that you do otherwise''.
Can you perhaps elucidate?

I am not about to embark on some philosophical discussion with you but I will try and explain as simply as I can. When I said:''When I made any decision it was made on the basis of the best information available to me at the time''. I suggest that you and every normal person would do the same as well, wouldn't you? That, therefore is a 'truth' as you see it...and you act on it. Our world's civilisations have developed this way and different viewpoints have had to change as new facts have become known...it’s called evolution…the same is true in world events. The slant which I mentioned is the new slant taken by some so-called neocons in Washington, and elsewhere. The 'truths' as they beheld them have changed, therefore their perceptions have changed. Your initial post talks about the information turning out to be false…that, as I have said is perfectly possible...it could change the other way as well, but I am certainly not prepared to call anyone a liar based on incomplete facts…it seems perfectly logical to me…I am ever sceptical about any politician, of whatever hue, however.

Is that clear enogh for you?

Eagle 86 Thanks for that…agree with your comments about the young ones…that was a spelling mistake in your first sentence (#18), right?

SASless Thanks for that, too. I always admire ambition in a person, even amongst the ‘challenged’.

Thanks once again.

NC43

[southside]

Just as a matter of interest and in order to win a battle in the crewroom. Has anyone got a cast iron example of a lie that the PM has spun. Any real evidence that he has told a lie? Im looking to win a barny in the Crewroom against this guy who reckons the PM is clean.

[Archimedes]

http://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/

Demonstrates the way in which facts can be stretched, spun, mis-, re- or creatively interpreted without ever quite verging on a lie being told...

[JessTheDog]

1a. Bliar lie to Parliament, 4 June 2003:

The allegation that the 45 minute claim provoked disquiet among the intelligence community, which disagreed with its inclusion in the dossier - I have discussed it, as I said, with the chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee - is also completely and totally untrue.

1b. Dr Brian Jones of DIS, in a minute dated 19 September 2002:

We have a number of questions in our minds relating to the intelligence on the military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, particularly about the times mentioned and the failure to differentiate between the two types of weapon.

2a. Bliar lie: PM's official spokesman, 22 July 2003:

(the case of Dr Kelly was) ...handled in accordance with MoD procedures and had been overseen by those at the top of the MoD in view of the fact that it had been the lead department.

2b. Bliar giving evidence to Hutton:

(in answer to a question whether procedures existed for such cases): No. Obviously, you know, this was, as I say, a very unusual set of circumstances. (note: Downing Street took the key decision with regard to the Dr Kelly affair)

3a. Bliar lie: to Parliament in response to Abu Ghraib, 12 May 2004:

It is not correct that ministers or I were aware of these allegations in respect of American Troops. The ICRC report was not passed to us.

3b. Parliamentary answer by Jack Straw, 16 June 2004:

The President of the ICRC, Dr Kellenberger, did mention briefly to my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in their meeting of 18 March that the February ICRC report contained allegations concerning treatment of detainees by forces other than UK forces.

4. Bliar's CV submitted in his bid to become Labour candidate for Sedgefield in 1983 claimed that he had "written for" the Guardian. His biographer John Rentoul states that "no published article can be found".

5a. Bliar, claiming to have stowed away on a flight to Barbados as a youth, to Des O'Connor in 1998:

(I) ..snuck on to the plane, and we were literally about to take off when the stewardess came up to me and said: "I don't think I actually saw your boarding pass".

5b. Bliar's father Leo:

The Bahamas? Who said that? Tony? Never. It's news to me.

5c. Newcastle Airport spokeswoman:

In our 61 year history we never had any flights to the Bahamas from here.

6a. Bliar lie: Appearing on Question Time speaking about the fox-hunting ban in 1999:

We had one try at it last season - people like myself voted in favour of banning fox-hunting. I voted for it.

6b. Bliar did not participate in this vote.

7a. Bliar lie: Paxman, asking about Labour accepting money from pornographer Richard Desmond, 16 May 2002:

They also own Horny Housewives, Mega Boobs, Posh Wives, Skinny & Wriggly. Do you know what these magazines are like?

7b. Bliar lying to Paxman:

No, I don't.

7c. Columnist for the Times Anthony Howard describes how the late Tony Bevins, political editor of the Daily Express, had a coincidental encounter with Bliar shortly after resigning from the paper in protest at Desmond's purchase:

Blair asked him why he was going. Bevins told me that, by way of reply, he simply took out from his briefcase some of the more lurid of the Desmond titles and threw them down in front of the Prime Minister - who, to be fair, shuddered and averted his gaze.