Shooting Down Civilian Airliners
Originally Posted by VH-GRUMPY
Seeing we see CAP cover aircraft from time to time over our cities - certainly during the Commonwealth Heads of Governement Meeting in Coolum (Queensland) and when George W visited Canberra one must ask and what happens after you hit the button?
Just wondering.
Just wondering.
500,000,000 million people will also formulate some twisted logic rationalizing that although they don't agree with the act, the passengers and their country somehow deserved it.
I've never really understood this whole 'shooting down hijacked airliners' thing. Like for a start - when do you decide to shoot it down? Here we go - a plane is hijacked and the terrorists politely tell us they are on their way to a 'very important place'. At the very important place they will crash the plane and cause carnage and stuff.
Or perhaps they won't phone us up and tell us where they are going & what they are going to do. I dunno - terrorists eh - can't rely on them.
So a plane, full of innocent people is hijacked - whatever - someone notices the plane is not responding and it is veering off course. Now if a very important place is nearby I'll assume that the plane is already over inhabited areas with innocent people going about their innocent lives. So - not knowing exactly what the hijacked plane is going to do when do we shoot it down (thus killing all the innocent people on the plane and maybe innocent people on the ground)?
Nice call that.
As I understand when something is shot down it - falls to the ground (gravity is a bitch) - which area of the country should we allow the plane to fall on? Are the innocents of city X of greater value than the innocents of city Y? And what right has The Country got to take the lives of innocent people? Its own innocent citizens? 'Dear Mr. LT, Sorry dear citizen but as the plane you were on was hijacked we are going to kill you before the terrorists do. Sorry and all that - hope you filled in your tax return. Thanks, All the Best, The Queen & her Elected Government.'
This is a no brainer. You can not shoot the plane down even if it is clearly being 'aimed' at a very important place.
When did this whole 'shoot down the hijacked plane' bollox start? On CNN by some armchair bound Terry F_ckwit commenting on the Twin Towers tragedy after 9-11?
Or perhaps they won't phone us up and tell us where they are going & what they are going to do. I dunno - terrorists eh - can't rely on them.
So a plane, full of innocent people is hijacked - whatever - someone notices the plane is not responding and it is veering off course. Now if a very important place is nearby I'll assume that the plane is already over inhabited areas with innocent people going about their innocent lives. So - not knowing exactly what the hijacked plane is going to do when do we shoot it down (thus killing all the innocent people on the plane and maybe innocent people on the ground)?
Nice call that.
As I understand when something is shot down it - falls to the ground (gravity is a bitch) - which area of the country should we allow the plane to fall on? Are the innocents of city X of greater value than the innocents of city Y? And what right has The Country got to take the lives of innocent people? Its own innocent citizens? 'Dear Mr. LT, Sorry dear citizen but as the plane you were on was hijacked we are going to kill you before the terrorists do. Sorry and all that - hope you filled in your tax return. Thanks, All the Best, The Queen & her Elected Government.'
This is a no brainer. You can not shoot the plane down even if it is clearly being 'aimed' at a very important place.
When did this whole 'shoot down the hijacked plane' bollox start? On CNN by some armchair bound Terry F_ckwit commenting on the Twin Towers tragedy after 9-11?
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Well thanks for all of that
I posted this thread last night (Australian Eastern Standard Summer Time) and I see this evening there are 41 replies. I like WIDGER'S - 'you don't really expect anyone to engage with you on this.'
Well mate I did and many did. I'm not interested in the 'smart ars**' comments but I am pleased some respondents took my question seriously. It is an issue which has concerned me when I drive past my national Parliament during a George Bush visit and I can hear an F/A 18 doing its thing. I know why its there and people have a right to ask and what will it do if ......?
I'm was not suggesting that the pilots would be held accountable -and I am well aware of the challenges and procedures which would be applied. I certainly feel terrible about what the pilot would go through and I would hope he or she would get proper support after the event.
I was more wondering about whether or not a government can actually legally pass legislation which makes it OK to kill their own innocent civilians including men women and children to stop say crazies (who might be home grown) crashing a plane into a building. I also wonder about the logic - you know, you didn't kill anyone you stupid bastar** - we did! I can't see what is achieved.
I should say that I have a background in government (Federal), aviation safety and was a member of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Task Force in 2001 (when the towers were hit) and at Coolum when a decision was made to put up F/A18s with surface to air missles.
I don't believe that these of decisions of government should go unchallenged.
I'm off now - but thanks for your views on this one. They were from the sublime to the rediculous to helpful and thoughtful.
Well mate I did and many did. I'm not interested in the 'smart ars**' comments but I am pleased some respondents took my question seriously. It is an issue which has concerned me when I drive past my national Parliament during a George Bush visit and I can hear an F/A 18 doing its thing. I know why its there and people have a right to ask and what will it do if ......?
I'm was not suggesting that the pilots would be held accountable -and I am well aware of the challenges and procedures which would be applied. I certainly feel terrible about what the pilot would go through and I would hope he or she would get proper support after the event.
I was more wondering about whether or not a government can actually legally pass legislation which makes it OK to kill their own innocent civilians including men women and children to stop say crazies (who might be home grown) crashing a plane into a building. I also wonder about the logic - you know, you didn't kill anyone you stupid bastar** - we did! I can't see what is achieved.
I should say that I have a background in government (Federal), aviation safety and was a member of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Task Force in 2001 (when the towers were hit) and at Coolum when a decision was made to put up F/A18s with surface to air missles.
I don't believe that these of decisions of government should go unchallenged.
I'm off now - but thanks for your views on this one. They were from the sublime to the rediculous to helpful and thoughtful.
For the record, there is no information on here, in the form of sensible answers, that even comes close to breaching sensitive information. Inappropriate questions have not been answered. It is obvious that the actual subject matter causes very strong feelings in different individuals, but that is a different matter (and no surprise).
The MOD made a decision last year to bring all this out in the open and publicise their 'policy' for want of a better phrase. That is why they invited the BBC to produce a segment that actually lasted 25 minutes. They were given access to all areas. Highlights from this were shown on Prime Time TV and went into far more 'technical' detail than I have on here.
So, their policy to provide a means of 'dealing' with what they consider to be a real threat from terrorists using civvy airliners is already in the public domain. Much the same as the Police have let it be known they have a shoot to kill policy.
Any journo's on here will be getting second hand information.
Whether or not this is a suitable subject for Pprune, well that is up to those who use and contribute, and the MODs of course. Again, lots of mixed feelings.
I for one hope that this polcy is never ever used in anger. It is the stuff of nightmares but, hopefully, the deterrent value is sufficient.
The MOD made a decision last year to bring all this out in the open and publicise their 'policy' for want of a better phrase. That is why they invited the BBC to produce a segment that actually lasted 25 minutes. They were given access to all areas. Highlights from this were shown on Prime Time TV and went into far more 'technical' detail than I have on here.
So, their policy to provide a means of 'dealing' with what they consider to be a real threat from terrorists using civvy airliners is already in the public domain. Much the same as the Police have let it be known they have a shoot to kill policy.
Any journo's on here will be getting second hand information.
Whether or not this is a suitable subject for Pprune, well that is up to those who use and contribute, and the MODs of course. Again, lots of mixed feelings.
I for one hope that this polcy is never ever used in anger. It is the stuff of nightmares but, hopefully, the deterrent value is sufficient.
Wyler,
No it's not "up to the MODS". It's up to people like you to stop posting ANY information on this subject on a public forum and allow those in DCC to decide what is fit for public consumption. My comment at the second thread was a subtle hint to get those like you not to rise to the questions!
Regards!
No it's not "up to the MODS". It's up to people like you to stop posting ANY information on this subject on a public forum and allow those in DCC to decide what is fit for public consumption. My comment at the second thread was a subtle hint to get those like you not to rise to the questions!
Regards!
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Wyler and all those advocating that the thread be shut down for the reasons stated. Get over yourselves, please...you are trying to make yourselves more important than you really are.
Thank you.
NC43
Thank you.
NC43
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Originally Posted by nutcracker43
Wyler and all those advocating that the thread be shut down for the reasons stated. Get over yourselves, please...you are trying to make yourselves more important than you really are.
NC43
NC43
It is a silly subject to be ppruning folks, small segments here and there add up to a big picture.
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I should say that I have a background in government (Federal), aviation safety and was a member of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Task Force in 2001 (when the towers were hit) and at Coolum when a decision was made to put up F/A18s with surface to air missles.
Seems that the top secret switch to a new policy of Ultra low level intercepts has been leaked out by a reputable member of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Task Force!
Seems Wyler was correct in wanting the thread shut down before any bombshells appeared!!
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Originally Posted by nutcracker43
Wyler and all those advocating that the thread be shut down for the reasons stated. Get over yourselves, please...you are trying to make yourselves more important than you really are.
Thank you.
NC43
Thank you.
NC43
Those of us who believe that this isn't really for open discussion may well know what we're talking about (and be aware of ALL the pros and cons) and just simply want to self-police and ensure that nothing gets posted without thinking - after all, it's too late once the post is there and will perhaps have been seen by a number of undesirables.
I know how important I am in this big picture, being an 'ex-pawn'!
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Threepointonefour
Thanks for that but you wouldn’t have a clue what I was versed in so your post is as irrelevant as the speculation on this thread thus far.
Clearly, there is a need to ensure that vulnerability assessments are not made subject to disclosure that would enable this information to fall into the wrong hands but none of them have been, have they? Nor are they likely to be.
I appreciate the ‘need to know’ principle and the need for secrecy. I am certain that anybody in the know would not be speculating here, however, from your tone and others here who perhaps feel the same way I do detect a slight note of pomposity and self importance. Remarks such as yours will simply attract all the Watergate type wannabes and conspiracy theorists. I know from my background, training and discipline exactly where I stand on the informed citizen verses the need for secrecy totem pole.
Thanks once again,
NC43
Thanks for that but you wouldn’t have a clue what I was versed in so your post is as irrelevant as the speculation on this thread thus far.
Originally Posted by threepointonefour
Those of us who believe that this isn't really for open discussion [I
Those of us who believe that this isn't really for open discussion [I
may well know what we're talking about (and be aware of ALL the pros and cons[/I]) and just simply want to self-police and ensure that nothing gets posted without thinking - after all, it's too late once the post is there and will perhaps have been seen by a number of undesirables.
I appreciate the ‘need to know’ principle and the need for secrecy. I am certain that anybody in the know would not be speculating here, however, from your tone and others here who perhaps feel the same way I do detect a slight note of pomposity and self importance. Remarks such as yours will simply attract all the Watergate type wannabes and conspiracy theorists. I know from my background, training and discipline exactly where I stand on the informed citizen verses the need for secrecy totem pole.
Thanks once again,
NC43
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A Lot of Garbage
I am quite happy for my thread to be closed down. The sooner the better.
It seems to be attracting a lot of garbage.
When the Australian Commonwealth Heads of Government Taskforce agreed with others that the Heads would be protected by military aircraft providing CAP over the venues we actually conducted a media conference at Maroochy airport conducted by the Chief of Air Staff and had two F/A18s conduct a fly past (the runways were too short for a landing) - fully armed: one slow and one fast. I was part of the media team and helped organise it.
The message to the community was clear - 'these are here to protect you so when you hear them at altitude over the next few days do not be worried. You can see them now - but you won't during the conference.'
None of this is secret - in fact the pictures of the flypast were available on the official website until it was archived by the Commonwealth Secretariat only a few months ago.
I thought I had raised a different issue from that being dbated here.
It seems to be attracting a lot of garbage.
When the Australian Commonwealth Heads of Government Taskforce agreed with others that the Heads would be protected by military aircraft providing CAP over the venues we actually conducted a media conference at Maroochy airport conducted by the Chief of Air Staff and had two F/A18s conduct a fly past (the runways were too short for a landing) - fully armed: one slow and one fast. I was part of the media team and helped organise it.
The message to the community was clear - 'these are here to protect you so when you hear them at altitude over the next few days do not be worried. You can see them now - but you won't during the conference.'
None of this is secret - in fact the pictures of the flypast were available on the official website until it was archived by the Commonwealth Secretariat only a few months ago.
I thought I had raised a different issue from that being dbated here.
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nutcracker43,
Please let me be the first to actually tell you to wind your neck in.
Myself, threepointonefour, frodomonkey et al are all actually in a position to comment with any kind of authority on this subject. We have not, and shockingly, we will not, and if you were actually anywhere near the "totem pole" you refer to, you would not either.
I really don't mean to be condescending here, but for god's sake have a little think about this, and walk a mile in our shoes.
If you've thought about it, and still don't agree, look on the bright side.........
You're a mile away.........
And you've got our shoes!!!!!
Please let me be the first to actually tell you to wind your neck in.
Myself, threepointonefour, frodomonkey et al are all actually in a position to comment with any kind of authority on this subject. We have not, and shockingly, we will not, and if you were actually anywhere near the "totem pole" you refer to, you would not either.
I really don't mean to be condescending here, but for god's sake have a little think about this, and walk a mile in our shoes.
If you've thought about it, and still don't agree, look on the bright side.........
You're a mile away.........
And you've got our shoes!!!!!
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Here is a pic
No problems Rocket.
BTW - if you go to this site - which is the Department of Defence Image Library and type in CHOGM in the search engine, you will get a pic of an F/A18 Hornet being refuelled above Brisbane duirng Operation Guaradian - note it has air-to-air missiles on board.
Now off to have a bit of 'pi*s' myself.
BTW - if you go to this site - which is the Department of Defence Image Library and type in CHOGM in the search engine, you will get a pic of an F/A18 Hornet being refuelled above Brisbane duirng Operation Guaradian - note it has air-to-air missiles on board.
Now off to have a bit of 'pi*s' myself.
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Originally Posted by nutcracker43
[B]Thanks once again, NC43
Originally Posted by nutcracker43
[B]Thank you
And we're accused of pomposity and self-importance? Who exactly are you thanking, and for what?
Enough of this anyway, I think we should all get back in our respective boxes and resist the temptation to stray to UKEO areas.
Last edited by threepointonefour; 26th Mar 2006 at 10:08.
Nutcracker 43,
How dare you confuse this argument with facts....when those "in the know" and thus burdened with that knowledge plainly know best...after all what does a helicopter pilot know anyway as the man said.
The funny thing about this is the guy actually believes helicopter pilots....or those that wish to pass themselves off as helicopter pilots...know naught.
Now this ain't rocket science here....missile science maybe since the Crabs don't believe in guns anymore....much like the Americans did prior to the onset of aerial warfare in Vietnam...but then what do the Spams know either.
It comes as no surprise to the AQ gang that western powers will now consider shooting down hijacked airliners. Probably what amazes them is how unprepared we were back in 2001.
No matter what is put forth on this thread....is not binding or enlightening to anyone. When the decision has to be made....it will be made and carried out. Gruesome and horrible as it is, sometimes the greater good requires tough decisions.
911 has changed all of the rules. I doubt we will see a hijacking of the sort we did then now that there are armed pilots, armored doors, and passengers with the fore knowledge they will probably die in a suicide attack by the terrorists and thus have nothing to lose in fighting back.
I have no problem with a fighter jock standing up and saying hell yes...I will pull the trigger if needed. You guys setting up front in these Bow Wings and Hair Brushes, kindly keep an eye out for that FJ waving his upraised center digit at you and such. No sense having an own side goal.
How dare you confuse this argument with facts....when those "in the know" and thus burdened with that knowledge plainly know best...after all what does a helicopter pilot know anyway as the man said.
The funny thing about this is the guy actually believes helicopter pilots....or those that wish to pass themselves off as helicopter pilots...know naught.
Now this ain't rocket science here....missile science maybe since the Crabs don't believe in guns anymore....much like the Americans did prior to the onset of aerial warfare in Vietnam...but then what do the Spams know either.
It comes as no surprise to the AQ gang that western powers will now consider shooting down hijacked airliners. Probably what amazes them is how unprepared we were back in 2001.
No matter what is put forth on this thread....is not binding or enlightening to anyone. When the decision has to be made....it will be made and carried out. Gruesome and horrible as it is, sometimes the greater good requires tough decisions.
911 has changed all of the rules. I doubt we will see a hijacking of the sort we did then now that there are armed pilots, armored doors, and passengers with the fore knowledge they will probably die in a suicide attack by the terrorists and thus have nothing to lose in fighting back.
I have no problem with a fighter jock standing up and saying hell yes...I will pull the trigger if needed. You guys setting up front in these Bow Wings and Hair Brushes, kindly keep an eye out for that FJ waving his upraised center digit at you and such. No sense having an own side goal.
