Free Masons - Should they "come out"?
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Tigs2
..... well, I'd sent in one post prior to the one you're now answering, attempting to return this thread to sensible debate instead of points-scoring and insult.
What's that supposed to mean? I take it that you're not being complimentary! On the basis of one posting you claim to know me and what I'm like?
That's rather like saying that 85% of road deaths are caused by people who haven't been drinking, so let's target them. It appears from the above that politeness and debating skills are two things not required in your lodge.
MM
You make a valid point, but the suspicion that has been expressed within this thread is that there is an undue and unfair amount of support going on. This may or may not be the case, whether we were talking about masons or Old Etonians, but whilst I can easily establish that two people are members of the same golf club or went to the same school, I cannot establish whether or not the 2 men concerned are masons.
I have one particular case in mind in which 3 very senior officers have supported one another, and been supported in turn by the MoD, despite the fact that their judgement in the case has been shown by several independent inquiries to be fundamentally flawed. If, as you suggested earlier, I knew that masonic collusion was going on, I would very much like to take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England, but I would presumably first have to establish that these gentlemen are, indeed, masons. The procedure you suggest is, therefore, unworkable for the non-mason. I could chance my arm and write complaining about them as if I already knew them to be masons. If my hunch turned out to be correct, I wonder what response I would get - a humble apology, an assurance that these particular brethren had been driven out of the organisation or would I just receive a reply denying that these men are masons? After all, how am I to check?
With respect, it doesn't seem like it to me.
The point is that the rest of us are not happy, and are trying to show why we aren't. Sorry if you think that the phrase I used is management-speak, but it seems an innocent-enough everyday expression that was certainly not designed to do anything.
mb
Just when i thought you were sending in reasonable posts....
If we did it would give ammo to people like you Meadowbank
i would stop worrying about the 15% of masons and start worrying about the 85% of non masons who i can state examples of giving unfair advantage to others
MM
We all know someone a couple of rungs up the ladder to whom we can turn for advice - whatever our profession.
I have one particular case in mind in which 3 very senior officers have supported one another, and been supported in turn by the MoD, despite the fact that their judgement in the case has been shown by several independent inquiries to be fundamentally flawed. If, as you suggested earlier, I knew that masonic collusion was going on, I would very much like to take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England, but I would presumably first have to establish that these gentlemen are, indeed, masons. The procedure you suggest is, therefore, unworkable for the non-mason. I could chance my arm and write complaining about them as if I already knew them to be masons. If my hunch turned out to be correct, I wonder what response I would get - a humble apology, an assurance that these particular brethren had been driven out of the organisation or would I just receive a reply denying that these men are masons? After all, how am I to check?
Freemasonry is just as keen as you are to eliminate wrong doing by its members.
I am happy where I am. I don't need a "way ahead" or any other management-speak expression designed to make me lead my life according to someone else's agenda.
mb
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Meadow Bank
I certainly was not trying to point score and certainly would not wish to insult. If you wish to debate that is good, in which case please read the thrust of my post, i,e about others helping others instead of locking on to comments you deem (incorrectly) to be a personal attack. They were not meant to be. My post concerns the fact that many people give unfair advantage to others.
I certainly was not trying to point score and certainly would not wish to insult. If you wish to debate that is good, in which case please read the thrust of my post, i,e about others helping others instead of locking on to comments you deem (incorrectly) to be a personal attack. They were not meant to be. My post concerns the fact that many people give unfair advantage to others.
Last edited by Tigs2; 14th Apr 2006 at 09:19.
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Tigs 2
Pleased to hear it, though PMs I've received indicate that I wasn't the only one who interpreted your comments this way.
See my most recent post for response to the main thrust of your (and MM's) responses. I would welcome your further comments.
MB
Pleased to hear it, though PMs I've received indicate that I wasn't the only one who interpreted your comments this way.
See my most recent post for response to the main thrust of your (and MM's) responses. I would welcome your further comments.
MB
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Back to the pc after a very pleasant weekend. Hope you all had a Happy Easter.
Meadowbank - I am not really sure what further comments you want. I contributed to this thread in the (vain?)hope that I could cast some light for those who genuinely wanted to know a little more about Freemasonry, and to refute some of the absurd and totally unsubstantiated allegations about its members. What can I say to those who are determined to see a Masonic conspiracy behind every case of perceived injustice or unfairness ? Nothing I say will make them change their minds.
It cannot be denied that there have always been some bad apples - hardly surprising from a worldwide membership of millions. But I leave you with a quotation which was made to me many years ago.
" It is not a question of how many unworthy men get into Freemasonry - it is a question of how much Freemasonry gets into unworthy men".
MM
Meadowbank - I am not really sure what further comments you want. I contributed to this thread in the (vain?)hope that I could cast some light for those who genuinely wanted to know a little more about Freemasonry, and to refute some of the absurd and totally unsubstantiated allegations about its members. What can I say to those who are determined to see a Masonic conspiracy behind every case of perceived injustice or unfairness ? Nothing I say will make them change their minds.
It cannot be denied that there have always been some bad apples - hardly surprising from a worldwide membership of millions. But I leave you with a quotation which was made to me many years ago.
" It is not a question of how many unworthy men get into Freemasonry - it is a question of how much Freemasonry gets into unworthy men".
MM
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Meadowbank
You say
I am very sorry but you have not answered the points in my post number 117. You said you had. Please read the latter half of the post. Your example above is bordering on the nonsensicle. You say that three senior officers have supported each other as has the MOD, you then go on to say that they might be masons?? What about the very likely fact that they might not be. So you might write to the Grand Lodge complaining about them and get a letter back saying that they are not Masons. Are you living in a conspiracy world where if anyone supports anyone else it automatically confers to you that they are Masons. The mind absolutely boggles.
You say
Originally Posted by meadowbank
[
I have one particular case in mind in which 3 very senior officers have supported one another, and been supported in turn by the MoD, despite the fact that their judgement in the case has been shown by several independent inquiries to be fundamentally flawed. If, as you suggested earlier, I knew that masonic collusion was going on, I would very much like to take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England, but I would presumably first have to establish that these gentlemen are, indeed, masons. The procedure you suggest is, therefore, unworkable for the non-mason. I could chance my arm and write complaining about them as if I already knew them to be masons. If my hunch turned out to be correct, I wonder what response I would get - a humble apology, an assurance that these particular brethren had been driven out of the organisation or would I just receive a reply denying that these men are masons? After all, how am I to check?
mb
I have one particular case in mind in which 3 very senior officers have supported one another, and been supported in turn by the MoD, despite the fact that their judgement in the case has been shown by several independent inquiries to be fundamentally flawed. If, as you suggested earlier, I knew that masonic collusion was going on, I would very much like to take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England, but I would presumably first have to establish that these gentlemen are, indeed, masons. The procedure you suggest is, therefore, unworkable for the non-mason. I could chance my arm and write complaining about them as if I already knew them to be masons. If my hunch turned out to be correct, I wonder what response I would get - a humble apology, an assurance that these particular brethren had been driven out of the organisation or would I just receive a reply denying that these men are masons? After all, how am I to check?
mb
I am very sorry but you have not answered the points in my post number 117. You said you had. Please read the latter half of the post. Your example above is bordering on the nonsensicle. You say that three senior officers have supported each other as has the MOD, you then go on to say that they might be masons?? What about the very likely fact that they might not be. So you might write to the Grand Lodge complaining about them and get a letter back saying that they are not Masons. Are you living in a conspiracy world where if anyone supports anyone else it automatically confers to you that they are Masons. The mind absolutely boggles.
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I never cease to be amazed to find that my position in life is to do with all the advantages that Freemasonry has brought me. In 16 years in the Royal Air Force I don't recall getting a single favour from anybody, masonic or otherwise, that furthered my career. I wish I had, a Flight Lieutenant's pension is not enough to live on.
I just don't believe that anybody gets more favours through being a Freemason than any other system. No doubt there are people who favour Lodge members, but round here it is more important to belong to Burford Golf Club than any Masonic Lodge. A Masonic friend is letting me have his car for nothing; the fact that we know each other literally from the creche is more likely to be an influence.
It should be remembered that when you are invited to join a Lodge it is unlikely to be a complete stranger that does it, but more likely somebody who has known you or your family for years, since they have to declare in the application form the time they have known you and that they deem you to be a suitable person to join the Lodge. I joined a Lodge where one member had delivered newspapers with me and another, as stated, is a life long friend. I met lots of new people, but all were indirectly linked to each other through mutual friendships over many years. It might be the fact that people know each other outside the Lodge that conditions any propensity to favour them.
The membership of Lodges is private. I cannot obtain a list of all members of the RAF Golf Society, or whatever it is called, but I suspect that people within it do favour each other. I've seen people ordered to take a day off to attend a championship even though the rest of us had to cover!!! If my masonic membership is desired by others within the service (and I am still on the Reserve List), then it is reasonable for me to be given the names of all of the members of other bodies within the RAF, including, obviously, the religious denominations entered on personal records (would you believe some RC type removed my membership of a station Anglican church committee from my list of secondary duties at ACR time).
We might well have an open society, but that doesn't give anybody and everybody the right to know who belongs to which clubs and societies.
The difference of course is in public life where civic society now demands declarations of interests. As an elected Town Councillor I have already declared openly my membership of my lodge (available at Carterton Town Hall) as well as all the other bodies that I am involved in. That doesn't mean that every member of each of those bodies has to declare their interest, but that those of us who hold public office should be open to place us above suspicion.
I do not consider being a member of the Royal Air Force to be 'public life'.
I just don't believe that anybody gets more favours through being a Freemason than any other system. No doubt there are people who favour Lodge members, but round here it is more important to belong to Burford Golf Club than any Masonic Lodge. A Masonic friend is letting me have his car for nothing; the fact that we know each other literally from the creche is more likely to be an influence.
It should be remembered that when you are invited to join a Lodge it is unlikely to be a complete stranger that does it, but more likely somebody who has known you or your family for years, since they have to declare in the application form the time they have known you and that they deem you to be a suitable person to join the Lodge. I joined a Lodge where one member had delivered newspapers with me and another, as stated, is a life long friend. I met lots of new people, but all were indirectly linked to each other through mutual friendships over many years. It might be the fact that people know each other outside the Lodge that conditions any propensity to favour them.
The membership of Lodges is private. I cannot obtain a list of all members of the RAF Golf Society, or whatever it is called, but I suspect that people within it do favour each other. I've seen people ordered to take a day off to attend a championship even though the rest of us had to cover!!! If my masonic membership is desired by others within the service (and I am still on the Reserve List), then it is reasonable for me to be given the names of all of the members of other bodies within the RAF, including, obviously, the religious denominations entered on personal records (would you believe some RC type removed my membership of a station Anglican church committee from my list of secondary duties at ACR time).
We might well have an open society, but that doesn't give anybody and everybody the right to know who belongs to which clubs and societies.
The difference of course is in public life where civic society now demands declarations of interests. As an elected Town Councillor I have already declared openly my membership of my lodge (available at Carterton Town Hall) as well as all the other bodies that I am involved in. That doesn't mean that every member of each of those bodies has to declare their interest, but that those of us who hold public office should be open to place us above suspicion.
I do not consider being a member of the Royal Air Force to be 'public life'.
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Where Are We Going With This?
Only just got round to reading this thread, not sure if I should have done now! The initial question was basically requesting membership details, as details are not published for any other organisation why should the masons do so? As to the ongoing question about membership enhances ones promotion prospects all I can say is rubbish, I have been a mason for several years, I wear a masonic symbol on my name badge, mention it on my annual boast sheet and where has it got me.....absolutally no-where, if anything it has hindered me. I am a mason because I like to help people less fortunate than myself, I am also a rotarian for the same reason. As far as my personal experiences go I have seen more of my comrades promoted because they played golf with senior officers or drank with their 1st RO than any Buff, Mason or Rotarian. There was a similar thread a few years ago, having a go at Freemasons for their anonimity, as I wrote then, it is a sorry state of affairs when the only person posting threads using their REAL name is a member of the "Secret Society" that you are all having a go at!
