REASONS TO STAY IN
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
If you are currently that cynical/cheesed off/myopic/bitter you probably won't see this, but the true irony is that it is only when you leave and become a stinking civilian do you fully realise what truly professional organisations Betty Windsor's flying clubs are. Light Blue, Dark Blue or Green, it's a totally professional job done very well by total professionals - you just don't always appreciate it while you are still serving. Be proud of it while you can.
I know PT asked people not to '..slag off...' his personal issues, but I would make the one following comment. In his reasons 'For' staying he said '......because they believe what they are being asked to do is right.'
Without going into a great political debate, and re-opening arguements already made on other threads I believe this is not necessarily the case any more. I beleive that many people in the military, at least at a junior level, were/are very uneasy with the background to the war against Iraq. They joined the armed services to defend their country, and preserve it's way of life, not invade other countries and impose a way of life on their occupants. Nevertheless, being the professionals that we are, we got on with the job, and did it to the best of our ability. However, it implanted in many a lack of faith in our leaders, both political and military, that has not gone away, and caused a re-think of our reasons for serving (the realisation that it is now just another job perhaps?). The subtle impact of this on some should not be overlooked in my opinion.
Those within the military fortunate enough not to have taken part in the (second!) war against Iraq, or to have served their since, may not be best placed to appreciate the validity of my comments.
Without going into a great political debate, and re-opening arguements already made on other threads I believe this is not necessarily the case any more. I beleive that many people in the military, at least at a junior level, were/are very uneasy with the background to the war against Iraq. They joined the armed services to defend their country, and preserve it's way of life, not invade other countries and impose a way of life on their occupants. Nevertheless, being the professionals that we are, we got on with the job, and did it to the best of our ability. However, it implanted in many a lack of faith in our leaders, both political and military, that has not gone away, and caused a re-think of our reasons for serving (the realisation that it is now just another job perhaps?). The subtle impact of this on some should not be overlooked in my opinion.
Those within the military fortunate enough not to have taken part in the (second!) war against Iraq, or to have served their since, may not be best placed to appreciate the validity of my comments.
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to be honest, a lot of the gripes mentioned here are the same gripes that people weren't happy with 16 years ago when i left.
having said that, when i now go back to RAF camps with my job and see people i used to be in with, just about all of them aren't happy, and even the younger lads in the crewroom seem to have an air of despondancy (i don't know if this has rubbed off from longer serving collegues). yes, they have a laugh and get on with the job, but in the background there is a definate 'pissed off' mood hanging in the air.
the australian air force let people leave for up to 18 months, if they like life on the outside, they can stay out, if its not the bed of roses they thought, they can go back in. perhaps something similar with our forces would let people get a taste of life outside, without the need to make it permanent.
having said that, when i now go back to RAF camps with my job and see people i used to be in with, just about all of them aren't happy, and even the younger lads in the crewroom seem to have an air of despondancy (i don't know if this has rubbed off from longer serving collegues). yes, they have a laugh and get on with the job, but in the background there is a definate 'pissed off' mood hanging in the air.
the australian air force let people leave for up to 18 months, if they like life on the outside, they can stay out, if its not the bed of roses they thought, they can go back in. perhaps something similar with our forces would let people get a taste of life outside, without the need to make it permanent.
Rocket
Well done, you,ve just proved that by resorting to call people childish names you probably don't have the balls to take control of your life and do what you really want.
Whatever, I'm happy and you are obviously not and that really is your problem.
Well done, you,ve just proved that by resorting to call people childish names you probably don't have the balls to take control of your life and do what you really want.
Whatever, I'm happy and you are obviously not and that really is your problem.
ROCKET
Fair points. I joined in 1979 and, yes, things have changed beyond recognition and not always for the better. There is very little worth in being an Officer these days and I think it will be diminished further by the current powers. I have always despaired of the phrase that we need different leaders in peacetime than we do in war. Consequently, we see a load of amateur politicians climbing up the greasy pole because they can write, bulls*it and slope shoulders.
However, I think the myth that the grass is greener on the outside is just that, a myth. I worked in industry before joining and I have close family in the manufacturing industry, what's left of it! They don't know if they will have a job next week, never mind next year. Their pensions are crap and if you go sick, you don't get paid after a very short period of time.
I still think there is a lot of good and I bang my drum every so often. Has about as much effect as a sardine fart in mid atlantic but makes me feel better. I would rather stay and try to make it a little better at the worker bee level. Still some great people around and I still enjoy the job, even after all these years and with all the 'extras' of today. However, it is now, more than ever, a job as opposed to a way of life.
However, I think the myth that the grass is greener on the outside is just that, a myth. I worked in industry before joining and I have close family in the manufacturing industry, what's left of it! They don't know if they will have a job next week, never mind next year. Their pensions are crap and if you go sick, you don't get paid after a very short period of time.
I still think there is a lot of good and I bang my drum every so often. Has about as much effect as a sardine fart in mid atlantic but makes me feel better. I would rather stay and try to make it a little better at the worker bee level. Still some great people around and I still enjoy the job, even after all these years and with all the 'extras' of today. However, it is now, more than ever, a job as opposed to a way of life.
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I agree with an awful lot of the knockers out there in this thread. Cleverly, I have been trapped by a certain set of circumstances/allowances at a time that I could ill afford to ignore them; but before you ostriches jump on me from a great height, you'd be right to point out that I made the choices in the first place.... so tough. Biggest Gripe: Senior Officers spouting the "If you don't like it leave" line. As if we all, of course, have no right to even debate this situation or try to stem the tide of change, just a little. I guess that's the reality of the situation, and it would probably be the same outside too! However, like alot of you, as soon as I get a realistic opportunity, I'm off, and from my perspective, after all these years, it makes me quite sad to say that!
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Originally Posted by Blodwyn Pig
the australian air force let people leave for up to 18 months, if they like life on the outside, they can stay out, if its not the bed of roses they thought, they can go back in. perhaps something similar with our forces would let people get a taste of life outside, without the need to make it permanent.
For myself, I often feel a bit despondant about the whole raf-life, but I haven't got a clue as to what work I would either like to do, get paid the same amount for with my qualifications, or could find in somewhere I'd like to live. Basically, it's better than the civvy job I used to have, and I'd rather live in a quarter at the end of the runway than do that b
y commute on the train into London again! Having a winge and moan and threatening to jack it all in is a good way of getting rid of the stress - it's a way of reminding yourself that you do, afterall, have the final say about what you do for cash.
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Personally, I like many others on this forum, am finding that the list of Pro's is by far and away outnumbered by the list of Cons nowadaysIf this really is the case what is keeping you in??
Perhaps you should spend less time moaning on forums such as this and more time establishing what type of jobs are on offer that do present you more pros than cons.
Perhaps you should spend less time moaning on forums such as this and more time establishing what type of jobs are on offer that do present you more pros than cons.
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Originally Posted by Lockstock
Ahh, dry your eyes Princess, pick up the phone tomorrow morning and tell your desk officer that.
Originally Posted by Lockstock
Well done, you,ve just proved that by resorting to call people childish names you probably don't have the balls to take control of your life and do what you really want.
Thread Starter
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Thanks chaps,
Picked up on a few reasons I had forgotten that makes thing all worthwhile.
Then I went to work today to receive a note from what we used to call Admin Wg stating that:
In respect of a member of my team who is long term sick I should remember that my line management responsibilities still apply during time of extended absence from place of work........
[I]A bit insulting to suggest that I would just give up on someone who is unfortunately ill
It goes on to say.....
I should contact the individual once may be twice a month to see how things are going......but more than this could be deemed as harassment!!!!
Picked up on a few reasons I had forgotten that makes thing all worthwhile.
Then I went to work today to receive a note from what we used to call Admin Wg stating that:
In respect of a member of my team who is long term sick I should remember that my line management responsibilities still apply during time of extended absence from place of work........
[I]A bit insulting to suggest that I would just give up on someone who is unfortunately ill
It goes on to say.....
I should contact the individual once may be twice a month to see how things are going......but more than this could be deemed as harassment!!!!
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Stay in:
1. Good mates.
2. (Generally) good "coal face" bosses ie same boat n all that.
3. PAS plus AFPS 2005 ie pensionable Flying Pay!
4. Proud (yes, honestly!) to be part of the UK Armed Forces ie not civvy.
5. Medical & dental care.
6. ELCs / SLCs.
7. Socialising - at home or abroad, dry or wet - with said mates.
Get out:
1. Inability of seniors to say "NO" to more n more tasking / mission creep.
2. PC Police (same in civvy street I know).
3. Having to take orders from politicians: rather it was HM!
4. Inputs to Service life from Civil Serpents.
1. Good mates.
2. (Generally) good "coal face" bosses ie same boat n all that.
3. PAS plus AFPS 2005 ie pensionable Flying Pay!
4. Proud (yes, honestly!) to be part of the UK Armed Forces ie not civvy.
5. Medical & dental care.
6. ELCs / SLCs.
7. Socialising - at home or abroad, dry or wet - with said mates.
Get out:
1. Inability of seniors to say "NO" to more n more tasking / mission creep.
2. PC Police (same in civvy street I know).
3. Having to take orders from politicians: rather it was HM!
4. Inputs to Service life from Civil Serpents.
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Perhaps you should spend less time moaning on forums such as this and more time establishing what type of jobs are on offer that do present you more pros than cons.
This thread seems to be splitting in two very seperate directions.
1. Those continually spouting "If you don't like it, leave" every time a somebody mentions the fact that many aspects of today's RAF/RN/Army are blatently cr4p
2. Those who are not too blinkered to see that things are far from ideal, and aren't too afraid mention the fact
To say that because I feel that we are at the top of a slippery slope at the minute, and that it is a shame we seem to be leaving behind many of the positive aspects of being an Officer in the Armed Forces, I am some sort of weak willed cry baby who remains in the RAF because I have reached my ceiling is absolutely ridiculous. I still enjoy my JOB on a day to day basis, and I am lucky to work with a fantastic bunch of blokes, however, as I have said before, I do feel that the list of Cons is growing increasingly larger, and as soon as I feel that there really is nothing worth staying for, I will leave, not before.
I always try to find the good in whatever situation I find myself in, and in this instance, I find myself extremely glad I don't work with TWOL8 and Lockstock
Rocket
The way the responses have emerged was always going to be thus.
But it is about choices in the end. Civilian life is not for everyone, and vice versa.
Some will stay for dosh, some will stay for buzz, and some because they have nothing to offer outside. (There's not an ATPL and job for everyone)
My sympathies are for those who are not happy, but still stay. That's sad, in my view.
CG
The way the responses have emerged was always going to be thus.
But it is about choices in the end. Civilian life is not for everyone, and vice versa.
Some will stay for dosh, some will stay for buzz, and some because they have nothing to offer outside. (There's not an ATPL and job for everyone)
My sympathies are for those who are not happy, but still stay. That's sad, in my view.
CG
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Originally Posted by The Rocket
To say that because I feel that we are at the top of a slippery slope at the minute, and that it is a shame we seem to be leaving behind many of the positive aspects of being an Officer in the Armed Forces, I am some sort of weak willed cry baby who remains in the RAF because I have reached my ceiling is absolutely ridiculous.
I don't think anyone suggested that you had reached your ceiling , maybe its your subconscious talking - might explain the fact that "this Air Force really isn't your cup of tea"
Originally Posted by charliegolf
My sympathies are for those who are not happy, but still stay. That's sad, in my view.
CG
CG
If you find that it is 'no longer my cup of tea' then you have a choice - stay and be unhappy, or leave.
And Rocket, the feeling is mutual - I'm fcucking glad I don't work with you. You wouldn't last 5 mins on my sqn.
Cunning Artificer
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With the clarity of hindsight, leaving when I did was probably a mistake. Still, I made the best of it and no regrets - but its interesting to see that most of the "againsts" given above would tally with my own at that time.
Take care now...
Take care now...
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What a bunch of old women! There's the quote about doing your best to change what you can and having the grace to accept what you can't (or something approaching that - if I had done English I'd be an Adminer). If you don't like what's going on either knuckle down and get it changed or leave.
N Joe
N Joe
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I wrote these on a long train journey immediately after leaving the mob. They are spilt into current (Ie jobless) and future (In my new job)
Current
For:
No more dunker/dingy drills/CCS/Fitness tests etc.
No trips to the desert
Clearer conscience
More location stability
No more secondary duties/ISS/morning briefs/duty bod etc.
No more being institutionalised
More freedom (In terms of appearance/travel etc.)
More girls
More fixed working day (Ie. Not 24/7)
Against:
Lack of money
Lack of military mates/camaraderie
No mess bar or functions
No job prestige
Not living on base (Mess, free gym, short commutes, having to live with parents)
No uniform to wear to weddings
No free dentistry/healthcare
No cheap AT/equipment hire.
Future
For:
More money
Flying to safer and more interesting places
Good job prestige
Cheap flights
Good working pattern
Ability to tell employers where to go.
Against:
Debt (Worries about med cat etc)
High living costs
Possible long commutes
Possible long shift patterns
I think I decided I was better off out. Some of them look a little weird or unimportant but different people value different things.
Current
For:
No more dunker/dingy drills/CCS/Fitness tests etc.
No trips to the desert
Clearer conscience
More location stability
No more secondary duties/ISS/morning briefs/duty bod etc.
No more being institutionalised
More freedom (In terms of appearance/travel etc.)
More girls
More fixed working day (Ie. Not 24/7)
Against:
Lack of money
Lack of military mates/camaraderie
No mess bar or functions
No job prestige
Not living on base (Mess, free gym, short commutes, having to live with parents)
No uniform to wear to weddings
No free dentistry/healthcare
No cheap AT/equipment hire.
Future
For:
More money
Flying to safer and more interesting places
Good job prestige
Cheap flights
Good working pattern
Ability to tell employers where to go.
Against:
Debt (Worries about med cat etc)
High living costs
Possible long commutes
Possible long shift patterns
I think I decided I was better off out. Some of them look a little weird or unimportant but different people value different things.