Air Training Corps

[DK338]

However, there are equally RAFVR(T) Officers with the responsibility of running Squadrons of Military Aircraft (from Flying Supervisory roles to Engineering Maintenance) and complying with RAF and Joint Services regulations. It would be imposible to imagine the RAF or MOD alowing civilians to hold such responsibility

No VR(T) officers running Sqns of military aircraft fella and don't include VGSs because they don't count. However, those VR(T) types on full time engagements are civil servants on J class commissions so yes they are civilians.

Quote:
I feel that an officer structure is neccesary for, dare I say a pseudo miltary organisation

Quite right, with the ACO (along with the other Cadet Forces) mimicking the Armed Forces, such a structure is necessary. For a start they are seen more in public that the Armed Forces. It also teaches the “youth” about their national defence, which in turn gives them respect for the men and women serving and respect for the head of state.

Cobblers, no way no how do you need a commission to do this.

From my exposure to the ATC over the last 10 years or so, the good guys are very much in the minority, but there are a great number of people who are quite literally in love with the wearing of the uniform and the status that adult service in the ATC affords, in particular the VR(T) commission. I've met far too may of them, shysters one and all.

In the current military climate with people on OOA operating in real danger I personally find reprehensible that there are characters out there enjoying all the benefits of the RAF but not being liable for miltary service. Not on I'm afraid!

[Maple 01]

In the current military climate with people on OOA operating in real danger I personally find reprehensible that there are characters out there enjoying all the benefits of the RAF but not being liable for military service. Not on I'm afraid!

Sorry, that's OTT, many of us ex-mob ATCers did plenty of OOA stuff thank-you very much*, of the others many could never join the Armed Forces because of poor health, family commitments or because it used to be plain difficult to get in. So they do the next best thing, they give their time to work with a bunch of kids who in many cases have few good male role models**. The kids might go on to join, they might not, but the experience will make them better citizens. It costs the RAF about £24m a year, for this they get a pool of 'Airminded Youth' and a lot of goodwill- bit of a bargain IMO, and all you have to complain about is that the commissioned VR(T) aren’t 'real officers!' Don't you think most of them know that?

*And in my case would have joined 7006VR on demob if they hadn’t got hung up on med cats
**Not ingnoring the girlies, just the male role model thing is kind of importaint at the moment

[mgdaviso]

Originally Posted by DK338

In the current military climate with people on OOA operating in real danger I personally find reprehensible that there are characters out there enjoying all the benefits of the RAF but not being liable for miltary service. Not on I'm afraid!

err... what benefits?

I get free initial issue of uniform - I have to pay for any new uniform I need.
If I get to go to annual camp - I get to use the mess and get cheap beer for a week.
I get paid at the appropriate rate for up to 28 days a year for taking time off from my paid employment to run weekend activities and week-long camps for the kids...

big deal.... I'm not in it for the money, not in it for the uniform, the cheap beer is probably the only draw for me

and yes, actually VR(T) are liable for call up in extreme circumstances (not that it's likely to happen mind!)

[PhoenixDaCat]

Sensible Bod, 2056 (Knutsford) will be your closest sqn, and I think they are short of staff at the moment.

More info here http://www.ecsmwing.co.uk/welcome/squadrons.aspx and also in a private message I just sent.

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Originally Posted by DK338

No VR(T) officers running Sqns of military aircraft fella and don't include VGSs because they don't count. However, those VR(T) types on full time engagements are civil servants on J class commissions so yes they are civilians.

What you call a J class commision is a commision in the RAFR(CC) - Civilian Component. A Civvie in Uniform if you will. They are certainly not VR(T). AEF staff pilots are VR(T).

And why don't VGS' count?

(Edited for grammar)

[plans123]

Squadron Crests?

Changing tack here slightly, just followed the link that PheonixDaCat just provided (mainly because I'm a bit bored) and noticed that a few of the ATC Squadrons had their own squadron crests!!!!!!

Sorry, but did I miss something? are Spacey Squadrons now being awarded them as well???

A bit of a dig on Google led me to bloody loads of them, most of the plagiarising RAF Squadron crests, squadrons that have a proud history.

Surely in the current RAF 'Logo' copyright world we now inhabit, this can't be allowed.

[airborne_artist]

And the award for Grumpy old git of the week goes to plans123.

Which bit of the crest below do you have a problem with?

[plans123]

This one look familar?

12 Sqn

or this one bottom left?

56 sqn



As for the grumpy old git award - Thank you very much!

[batfink2]

Originally Posted by plans123

Surely in the current RAF 'Logo' copyright world we now inhabit, this can't be allowed.

Technically they shouldn't be - however the College of Arms & Inspector of RAF Badges is, at present, turning a blind eye. Currently there are only 4 ATC Squadrons who have crests which have been formally adopted by the College of Arms.

And why should they not have crests?

[Ops and Mops]

and yes, actually VR(T) are liable for call up in extreme circumstances (not that it's likely to happen mind!)

Actually, no they are not. The war appointable part of the RAFVR was amalgamated into the RAuxAF in 1997.

The role of the RAFVR(T) is within the cadet Forces only and as such cannot, under current regulations or Goverment legislation, be mobilised. The most that would happen is that in a National Emergency Sqn Cdrs would be required to parade at their Parent Unit to surrender their unit service weapons and ammunition. RAFVR(T) Officers may, however, be selected for conscription (not necessarily commissioning) due to their prior limited military training. They would be, however, subject to the same medical standard etc as every one else.

There has been some debate and rumour over the years about the RAFVR(T) providing weapons and other basic training in the event of conscription. However this is not actually supported, and would require a war appointment to be created (authorised by government and the Sovereign) to allow the RAFVR(T) to be mobilised into full time service.

The RAFVR(UAS) used to have a Civil Defence role (note not a war role) until the demise of the UKWMO.

[batfink2]

Originally Posted by Ops and Mops

The most that would happen is that in a National Emergency Sqn Cdrs would be required to parade at their Parent Unit to surrender their unit service weapons and ammunition.

That always makes me laugh! The thought of us handing over our No 8's must have Al-Quaeda quaking in their sandles!

[Ops and Mops]

Exactly.......

[Strictly Jungly]

I would like to thank the ATC (2394 E Cleveland Sqn) as it gave me a unique opportunity to see RAF life.........................and that is why I subsequently joined the best....................the FAA. So please don't knock the ATC, it serves its purpose.
Regards
SJ

[tmmorris]

I dunno batfink, we do have a couple of dozen vaguely serviceable L98A1s. They would knock a hole in a few enemy grunts until they jammed, as per usual.

Tim

[DK338]

Maple, please don't think my comments re OOA are aimed at people like you, or me for that matter. My point, although poorly articulated, is that the uniform of the RAF is that of a fighting service and as such the right to wear it is earned and I do not believe that members of the ACO with no prvious military service have earned that right. However, I do concede your point that many go into adult service with the ATC after thwarted attempts to join the regulars or because of personal circumstances. If VR(T) training was a little more robust and some of the bloaters that inhabit our ranks were counselled about pie eating and setting a good example and appropriate image, I would have a more sympathetic outlook.

I suppose after all this rhetoric is what I am trying to say is improve the training and make holders of the VR(T) commission more credible and thus worthy of wearing the uniform.

AEF staff pilots are VR(T).

Ah yes so they are, but also they are to a man ex regulars! Also it is my understanding that no VR(T) AEF pilot actually commands the AEF, that job these days falls to an RAFR Sqn Ldr, also ex regular because as you probably well know, only service qualified pilots are allowed to captain AEF Aircraft.

And why don't VGS' count?

Because you cannot possibly imagine that a glider is a military aeroplane.

[wg13_dummy]

Because you cannot possibly imagine that a glider is a military aeroplane.

*cough*

[NightFlit]

Quote:
And why don't VGS' count?
Because you cannot possibly imagine that a glider is a military aeroplane.

Clearly someones disgruntled! I'm sorry to say, if you look on the Strength of the RAF, the VGSs are listed as an Elementry Flying Training Unit ... ooh look, just below UASs. I don't suppose the military registration, and the fact that they are owned by the Armed Forces is a big enougth give away that they are military?

You may find that the VR (T) specific cannot be called up, but without looking too deep in the tablets of stone I'm sure you'll find that these delightful holders can have their commissioning status changed so they can be called up (excluding conscription of course). That goes for "Civilian" Instructors who act as an military aircraft commanders.

[DK338]

WG13... Yeah yeah! Massive difference between a Horsa/Hamilcar/Hadrian and a G103/G109.

Clearly someones disgruntled! I'm sorry to say, if you look on the Strength of the RAF, the VGSs are listed as an Elementry Flying Training Unit ... ooh look, just below UASs. I don't suppose the military registration, and the fact that they are owned by the Armed Forces is a big enougth give away that they are military?

Ah so does this mean that gliders owned by the RAFGSA/RNGA/AGA are 'military' aircraft too? No clearly not as the organisations referred to are clubs within the military and therfore the aircraft are procured privately however they are still military by association. The VGS aircraft are scourced publically so the RAF has to justify the expense somehow.

You may find that the VR (T) specific cannot be called up, but without looking too deep in the tablets of stone I'm sure you'll find that these delightful holders can have their commissioning status changed so they can be called up (excluding conscription of course). That goes for "Civilian" Instructors who act as an military aircraft commanders.

Are you referring to VGS personnel here or VR(T) in general? Either way I cannot image for a second an individual holding a VR(T) commission having his commission transferred to the active reserve for temporary mobilisation unless he/she has a specific skill that the RAF could utilise in a commissioned capacity. Nothing about being disgruntled, more about fed up to the back teeth with poseurs and social climbers!

[VigilantPilot]

Have to agree that we are stretching the imagination a little far to think that there would ever be a call to change VR(T) commissions and call them up.

[Ops and Mops]

Also it is my understanding that no VR(T) AEF pilot actually commands the AEF, that job these days falls to an RAFR Sqn Ldr, also ex regular because as you probably well know, only service qualified pilots are allowed to captain AEF Aircraft.

With the exception of OC 12AEF who has never been a regular, nor a Qualified Service Pilot as defined in the books.

He is the only person qualified to wear the unique VR Flying badge which he earned on being converted from Civilian QFI to RAFVR QFI (note not RAFVR(T) but now RAFR) via CFS. He is the product of a scheme introduced by Support Command years ago to recruit Civilian Flying Instructors to bolster the AEFs. OC 12 AEF was the only successful student from this course to earn his VR wings, and the scheme was subsequently scrapped.

Agreed though that he is the exception rather than the rule!

I'm sure you'll find that these delightful holders can have their commissioning status changed so they can be called up

I'm sure you'll find that they can't. It would have to go to the Sovreign first to change their role, Terms of Appointment, the role of the RAFVR(T) as established and then select those fit to carry out a War Role. As has been said, some are thinking far too far outside the box here.