Tell me this isn't true?
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The minorities have the say in the modern world because that's the few that governments and oppositions in Western countries have to influence to win or be sustained in government. Oz Labor party branch stacking for instance.
PS I think it would have been better if Gibson had been a conscientious objector and refused to bomb the dams and drown all those Krauts - sorry Huns no,no sorry squareheads - sh1t I'll get it right soon - Germans!
PPS In the next life I'm coming back as a handicapped, gay member of a minority race.
PS I think it would have been better if Gibson had been a conscientious objector and refused to bomb the dams and drown all those Krauts - sorry Huns no,no sorry squareheads - sh1t I'll get it right soon - Germans!
PPS In the next life I'm coming back as a handicapped, gay member of a minority race.
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OK
TartAn Giant
Thanks for the condescending remarks. Thought i might hit a nerve!
Yes I did look at your public profile [I]after[I] I posted my comments, perhaps if you looked at mine you would know what trade I am! Not that that has anything to do with the issue!
Yes, thank you for that obvious statement!
You are right, everyone in this country has the right to free speech and long may it continue. As you may know a lot of people (black, white, asian etc) have fought and died defending that right.
BUT, free speech has it's limits. If I were to suggest black people were to only sit at the back of buses or that women shouldn't be allowed the vote would that be alright for you, hey it's free speech and it's part of history. As a responsible member of the Royal Air Force I should not hold those views and I certainly shouldn't express those views.
I fear we're drifting away from the issue here though.
I have to agree with Archimedes comment;
Lets face it any officer worth his salt should recognise Guy Gibson and his DOG!
TartAn Giant
Thanks for the condescending remarks. Thought i might hit a nerve!
Yes I did look at your public profile [I]after[I] I posted my comments, perhaps if you looked at mine you would know what trade I am! Not that that has anything to do with the issue!
War is shocking, paintings and "statements" less so.
You are right, everyone in this country has the right to free speech and long may it continue. As you may know a lot of people (black, white, asian etc) have fought and died defending that right.
BUT, free speech has it's limits. If I were to suggest black people were to only sit at the back of buses or that women shouldn't be allowed the vote would that be alright for you, hey it's free speech and it's part of history. As a responsible member of the Royal Air Force I should not hold those views and I certainly shouldn't express those views.
I fear we're drifting away from the issue here though.
I have to agree with Archimedes comment;
Better yet, omit the name plate entirely. Any new arrival to the mess unable to identify the portrait's subjects could be returned to training to rectify their shameful lack of historical knowledge.
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Mention has already been made of the famous 'Dam Busters' film which reappears from time-to-time on British TV. Some years ago when the PC brigade got involved all scenes relating to Nigger were removed. After many complaints, it is only very recently that the film has reverted to near the original.
Can I ask the PC brigade why is it that in England, the Blacks can and do have a Black Police Union, but the Government will not permit the Whites to have a White Police Union?
Why is it, in certain towns and cities, you cannot fly the English Cross of St. George Flag, in case it offends the immigrants? Many of whom fly their former National Flags even though they are 'British'. Norman Tebbits' cricket match test comes to mind here. For the young ones not familiar with that, I will explain. A cricket match takes place in England: Pakistan versus England; young second and third generation 'British' subjects of Pakistani extraction will invariably support the Pakistani team, even though they were born in England, brought up in the British culture and mostly have never been anywhere near Pakistan. Explain please? Genes?
Sadly an acquaintance of mine passed away last year, one of a dwindling number of members of the Bomber Command Association, who all did their bit in WWII.
I will always remember the statement made by one of them and echoed by many, it went something like this: 'Given the state of this Country (England) I am looking forward to dying soon. Is this what we fought and died for?' - - - - - and I will give you a clue: he wasn't talking about politicians and their gross inadequacies, though indirectly they are responsible.
Just checked a copy of a 1957 (English) Oxford School Dictionary I have, quote:
black, a. of the darkest colour; dark-skinned; wicked, n. black colour; black speck; mourner's clothes; negro. v.t. make black; polish with blacking.
black'amoor, n. negro; black man
negro, n. (negroes; fem. negress), member of black-skinned African race with woolly hair and thick lips.
negroid, a. of partly negro type. [Sp. < L. niger black]
nigger (-g-), n. negro; (of colour) very deep brown. [F. < Sp. NEGRO]
golliwog, n. a doll with black face and woolly hair
Just run this through a spell-checker provided by an American computer giant and NIGGER is there - perhaps someone should complain?
Put the picture and name plate back! Those who don't like it Have the Right to Leave - no one's stopping you! It was, to use someones earlier phrase, 'British Scum' which has given you that freedom to decide.
Can I ask the PC brigade why is it that in England, the Blacks can and do have a Black Police Union, but the Government will not permit the Whites to have a White Police Union?
Why is it, in certain towns and cities, you cannot fly the English Cross of St. George Flag, in case it offends the immigrants? Many of whom fly their former National Flags even though they are 'British'. Norman Tebbits' cricket match test comes to mind here. For the young ones not familiar with that, I will explain. A cricket match takes place in England: Pakistan versus England; young second and third generation 'British' subjects of Pakistani extraction will invariably support the Pakistani team, even though they were born in England, brought up in the British culture and mostly have never been anywhere near Pakistan. Explain please? Genes?
Sadly an acquaintance of mine passed away last year, one of a dwindling number of members of the Bomber Command Association, who all did their bit in WWII.
I will always remember the statement made by one of them and echoed by many, it went something like this: 'Given the state of this Country (England) I am looking forward to dying soon. Is this what we fought and died for?' - - - - - and I will give you a clue: he wasn't talking about politicians and their gross inadequacies, though indirectly they are responsible.
Just checked a copy of a 1957 (English) Oxford School Dictionary I have, quote:
black, a. of the darkest colour; dark-skinned; wicked, n. black colour; black speck; mourner's clothes; negro. v.t. make black; polish with blacking.
black'amoor, n. negro; black man
negro, n. (negroes; fem. negress), member of black-skinned African race with woolly hair and thick lips.
negroid, a. of partly negro type. [Sp. < L. niger black]
nigger (-g-), n. negro; (of colour) very deep brown. [F. < Sp. NEGRO]
golliwog, n. a doll with black face and woolly hair
Just run this through a spell-checker provided by an American computer giant and NIGGER is there - perhaps someone should complain?
Put the picture and name plate back! Those who don't like it Have the Right to Leave - no one's stopping you! It was, to use someones earlier phrase, 'British Scum' which has given you that freedom to decide.
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I have come to this thread rather late, having spent an evening with my multi-cultural friends last night. I sincerely hope that many of the inflammatory posters are not Armed Forces personnel, since I have served loyally to ensure all have the right of freedom and have sometimes fought to ensure that right. History is important and we preserve it so that the lessons may be learned by later generations, but this hackeyed argument over the display of GG's dog's name just serves to highlight prejudice that remains. There have been some incredibly inciteful comments that should be applauded in this post, and others from people who, if they are serving, have learned little along the way.
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O i/c Nigger's Grave was a 617 Sqn secondary duty. The grave was well tended - woe betide the Sqn if a single weed was found by the original dams raid members who were the original 617 Sqn Association members. They had a reunion every 2 years hosted by the Sqn at Scampton. They are a fantastic bunch of guys - they were adept at letting their hair down and putting us at our ease!
As for the reported removal of the painting, the i/c the mess [whichever one it is] and the Staish should tell complainer to grow up, write an essay on the dams raid and get the painting back on the wall pronto.
You cannot re-write history.
It won't be too long before there is a PC backlash [I believe it is starting already] in this country. People in my local pub are sick to death of it, as are many of the minorities who are being tarred with the same 'complaining brigade' brush.
As for the reported removal of the painting, the i/c the mess [whichever one it is] and the Staish should tell complainer to grow up, write an essay on the dams raid and get the painting back on the wall pronto.
You cannot re-write history.
It won't be too long before there is a PC backlash [I believe it is starting already] in this country. People in my local pub are sick to death of it, as are many of the minorities who are being tarred with the same 'complaining brigade' brush.
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ANW
Good quotes from the 1957 Oxford School Dictionary. The thing is, in 1957 black people in America were barred from riding on the front of buses and from going to "white" colleges! The terms "nigger", "wog", "nignog" etc were in general use as derogertory terms for black people.
You seem to have omitted the many thousands of black African, black Caribbeans, Indian and Gurkah troops (to mention a few!) that lost their lives fighting for (our) freedom as well.
Good quotes from the 1957 Oxford School Dictionary. The thing is, in 1957 black people in America were barred from riding on the front of buses and from going to "white" colleges! The terms "nigger", "wog", "nignog" etc were in general use as derogertory terms for black people.
British Scum' which has given you that freedom to decide.
Let’s face it; any officer worth his salt should recognise that Guy Gibson meant no offence 60+ years ago in naming his dog ‘Nigger’.
If true, then this airman has done himself and his fellow brother’s disfavour, and should have duly noted and moved on instead of stirring up the deep routed subject of racism and thereby drawn unwelcomed attention to all ethnic personnel on the station.
Had someone called/referred to this airman as a nigger, then I would standby his grievances, and he should expect to receive an apology or redress. However, if this individual feels so strongly about the innocent naming - so long ago - of a dog belonging to probably the most famous airmen in the RAF’s history, then I would have to question his/her suitability to Armed Forces life.
If true, then this airman has done himself and his fellow brother’s disfavour, and should have duly noted and moved on instead of stirring up the deep routed subject of racism and thereby drawn unwelcomed attention to all ethnic personnel on the station.
Had someone called/referred to this airman as a nigger, then I would standby his grievances, and he should expect to receive an apology or redress. However, if this individual feels so strongly about the innocent naming - so long ago - of a dog belonging to probably the most famous airmen in the RAF’s history, then I would have to question his/her suitability to Armed Forces life.
"O i/c Nigger's Grave was a 617 Sqn secondary duty. The grave was well tended - woe betide the Sqn if a single weed was found...."
Unlikely to be many weeds, as those of us on 35 Sqn would pee on it - and 27 Sqn's boat spotters probably emptied their colostomy bags over it!
This whole thing always seems to generate huge amounts of hot air. Just remind people that many of attitudes and expressions used 60 years ago differ from those of today. Gibson's dog's name is a matter of historical fact - and even the PC and EO brigade can't change history.
Unlikely to be many weeds, as those of us on 35 Sqn would pee on it - and 27 Sqn's boat spotters probably emptied their colostomy bags over it!
This whole thing always seems to generate huge amounts of hot air. Just remind people that many of attitudes and expressions used 60 years ago differ from those of today. Gibson's dog's name is a matter of historical fact - and even the PC and EO brigade can't change history.
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FJJP, you are absolutley right. The Staish should get that picture back up on the wall asap. There are high feelings running here and not without cause, it matters not one iota that some of them are unashamedly homeland based in their views, which is as natural as anyone being born with one coloured skin or another and with the birthright they are entitled to.
Immigrants who have been given the right to live here must accept, like it or not, that our country is our country and we, for the most part, like it the way it is. If they don't like it or us they have the answer in their own hands. But they have to know that that answer is not to tell us what is right or wrong with our culture and our history. Especially our history.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS SAILORS AND AIRMEN WHO DIED, OR TOOK PART IN TWO WORLD WARS, HAS A RIGHT TO EXPECT RESPECT AND OUR OUR UNDYING MEMORY OF WHAT THEY DID FOR US. It is not negotiable.
Leave our history alone. I like it and I want it kept for for my grandchildren and their grandchildren - to be proud of the country of their birth. Others may indulge also but with respect, since many of these unselfish warriors could possibly be from their own countries. That needs some thought.
Then FJJP said this:
Get that picture back where it belongs. Tell the 'airman' who thought it was discrimination to get real - and to get stuffed. Enough is enough!
Immigrants who have been given the right to live here must accept, like it or not, that our country is our country and we, for the most part, like it the way it is. If they don't like it or us they have the answer in their own hands. But they have to know that that answer is not to tell us what is right or wrong with our culture and our history. Especially our history.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS SAILORS AND AIRMEN WHO DIED, OR TOOK PART IN TWO WORLD WARS, HAS A RIGHT TO EXPECT RESPECT AND OUR OUR UNDYING MEMORY OF WHAT THEY DID FOR US. It is not negotiable.
Leave our history alone. I like it and I want it kept for for my grandchildren and their grandchildren - to be proud of the country of their birth. Others may indulge also but with respect, since many of these unselfish warriors could possibly be from their own countries. That needs some thought.
Then FJJP said this:
It won't be too long before there is a PC backlash [I believe it is starting already] in this country. People in my local pub are sick to death of it, as are many of the minorities who are being tarred with the same 'complaining brigade' brush.
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EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS SAILORS AND AIRMEN WHO DIED, OR TOOK PART IN TWO WORLD WARS, HAS A RIGHT TO EXPECT RESPECT AND OUR OUR UNDYING MEMORY OF WHAT THEY DID FOR US. It is not negotiable.
It's not even as though it were a "war dog" who was given a medal for gallantry. It was (simply) a dog who waited for his (later to be famous) master to return!
Some comments seem to suggest that this airman who complained was some sort of illegal immigrant and that if he doesn't like it he should p**s off back to his own country! Where do you get that assumption from? He may in fact be more British than you are. The recent series of 'Who do you think you are' has highlighted some typically British people who are in fact only second or third generation. If these people protested about something should they p**s off back to where they came from.
Get a life people, we are talking about the name of the dog not about removing GG from history!
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Well done CM.
When you take something out of contect as you have done it sometimes makes for an easy answer. Fortunately not in this case.
The picture was removed for one reason only. Because it had the word 'Nigger' on it. Guy Gibson's dog. I am not going to repeat myself but in this case I am happy that something will come from all this and the Staish will get it put back. If it is true of course.
You are entitled to your opinions and I support that. But it don't and won't make you right.
When you take something out of contect as you have done it sometimes makes for an easy answer. Fortunately not in this case.
The picture was removed for one reason only. Because it had the word 'Nigger' on it. Guy Gibson's dog. I am not going to repeat myself but in this case I am happy that something will come from all this and the Staish will get it put back. If it is true of course.
You are entitled to your opinions and I support that. But it don't and won't make you right.
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Firstly, I have no comment about the specific issue being debated here - it is not my Mess and I know nothing of the painting, whether or not it has been removed, and if so why or who was involved.
As for Nigger's Grave, the stone and railings are still in place and were in better condition than the hangar (and offices) last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. Of course whether the dog is actually buried there is the subject of some conjecture...
I am not sure what Northern Circuit was refering to, but if it was a suggestion for a 2ndry duty, NO THANKS.
STH
As for Nigger's Grave, the stone and railings are still in place and were in better condition than the hangar (and offices) last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. Of course whether the dog is actually buried there is the subject of some conjecture...
I am not sure what Northern Circuit was refering to, but if it was a suggestion for a 2ndry duty, NO THANKS.
STH
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The painting should be replaced.
Incidentally, an old Vulcan mate told me that "the dog" has had it's grave moved at least 3 times to his knowledge to various parts of Scampton. Also while we all know where "the dog" is buried, what about it's erstwhile owner. Guy Gibson, was a VC, and dead before his 27th birthday having been shot down in a Mossie while acting as a Master Bomber. Question is, how many of you history and heritage folks know where he is buried, or how well his grave is tended?
On 19 September 1944 a plane crashed near Steenbergen, Holland. On board, though this was not known at the time, was Wing Commander Guy Gibson, VC, DSO, DFC. With him was Squadron Leader J.B. Warwick, DFC, who was identified because of a gold wedding ring found at the site.
The two bodies were buried in Steenbergen cemetery with a simple wooden cross marking the grave. The inscription read:
AND UNKNOWN SOLDIER
19 - 9 -1944
When Steenbergen was liberated in November 1944 details of the crash were passed to the Identification Squad, along with the engine number of the plane. In February 1945 the name of Guy Gibson was added to the cross.
In September 1967 Jan van den Driesschen was reading to his young son from a youth magazine. In it was a story about Guy Gibson and Jan was astonished to learn that Gibson was buried not far away. He and his wife visited the cemetery and found the grave – overgrown, and in an appalling state of disrepair - and decided there and then to look after the graves for as long as they were able.
In 1974 Eve Gibson read in an English newspaper that Jan and his wife had for some time been tending her husband’s grave. They met, became close friends and when Jan decided to write his book he asked Eve Gibson for an insight into the character of Guy Gibson.
Incidentally, an old Vulcan mate told me that "the dog" has had it's grave moved at least 3 times to his knowledge to various parts of Scampton. Also while we all know where "the dog" is buried, what about it's erstwhile owner. Guy Gibson, was a VC, and dead before his 27th birthday having been shot down in a Mossie while acting as a Master Bomber. Question is, how many of you history and heritage folks know where he is buried, or how well his grave is tended?
On 19 September 1944 a plane crashed near Steenbergen, Holland. On board, though this was not known at the time, was Wing Commander Guy Gibson, VC, DSO, DFC. With him was Squadron Leader J.B. Warwick, DFC, who was identified because of a gold wedding ring found at the site.
The two bodies were buried in Steenbergen cemetery with a simple wooden cross marking the grave. The inscription read:
156612 J. B. WARWICK
AND UNKNOWN SOLDIER
19 - 9 -1944
When Steenbergen was liberated in November 1944 details of the crash were passed to the Identification Squad, along with the engine number of the plane. In February 1945 the name of Guy Gibson was added to the cross.
In September 1967 Jan van den Driesschen was reading to his young son from a youth magazine. In it was a story about Guy Gibson and Jan was astonished to learn that Gibson was buried not far away. He and his wife visited the cemetery and found the grave – overgrown, and in an appalling state of disrepair - and decided there and then to look after the graves for as long as they were able.
In 1974 Eve Gibson read in an English newspaper that Jan and his wife had for some time been tending her husband’s grave. They met, became close friends and when Jan decided to write his book he asked Eve Gibson for an insight into the character of Guy Gibson.
Last edited by RayDarr; 4th Feb 2006 at 17:55.
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Spotter,
I regret to say that I understand the person concerned is, allegedly, a SNCO, infact a very SNCO (but not a WO yet) and so I find it even more astonishning that someone with so much time in the service would take such a point of view. I would have hoped that he was old enough and wise enough to have been a bit more adult ands sensible about the matter.
I wholeheartedly agree with nearly everythiing that has been said here, but I find the saddest thing is that (presumably) the CMC and O i/c have been prepared to allow its removal. 'Tis little wonder the RAF is in such a state when history can be removed and locked in a cupboard because someone finds a dogs name offensive, God help us!
I notice that, despite another thread on this forum about Scampton, there is a distinct lack of Scampton voices here, and no one has either denied or confirmed my original rumour. Are you all under instructions from someone NOT to comment? Please can someone from Scampton clarify things???
Kind regards to all
TSM
'Caruthers, lets all raise a glass to Guy and to NIGGER, a damned dog!'
I regret to say that I understand the person concerned is, allegedly, a SNCO, infact a very SNCO (but not a WO yet) and so I find it even more astonishning that someone with so much time in the service would take such a point of view. I would have hoped that he was old enough and wise enough to have been a bit more adult ands sensible about the matter.
I wholeheartedly agree with nearly everythiing that has been said here, but I find the saddest thing is that (presumably) the CMC and O i/c have been prepared to allow its removal. 'Tis little wonder the RAF is in such a state when history can be removed and locked in a cupboard because someone finds a dogs name offensive, God help us!
I notice that, despite another thread on this forum about Scampton, there is a distinct lack of Scampton voices here, and no one has either denied or confirmed my original rumour. Are you all under instructions from someone NOT to comment? Please can someone from Scampton clarify things???
Kind regards to all
TSM
'Caruthers, lets all raise a glass to Guy and to NIGGER, a damned dog!'
While speaking of the doggie, I believe that he had a few operations under his collar (he certainly had several hours on Lancs). OT, but - when the unit had Venturas, the then CO of 21 Sqn's dog was KIA alongside his master.
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Swinging Monkey
I first saw this thread on Friday evening. You may get more of a response next week once people have had a chance to see the thread. Many of those who live in the SNCOs' Mess are weekly boarders, and will probably want to establish the facts themselves before commenting - if they comment at all.
STH
I notice that, despite another thread on this forum about Scampton, there is a distinct lack of Scampton voices here, and no one has either denied or confirmed my original rumour. Are you all under instructions from someone NOT to comment? Please can someone from Scampton clarify things???
STH