Why are people leaving in droves ?
Join Date: Jan 2005
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It took an unusually long time for the predictable "well nobody wants to leave the RN" to appear....
The thing that will mean I leave at my option is a career of watching the honest gifted leaders leave and of seeing chiselling non-achievers administrate their way into Flt and Sqn Cdr slots.
(No bitterness here - I don't fall into either category)
As for other rants, can I also offer the (slightly old but still valid) experience of telling your subordinates that they will be working long shifts to cover striking firemen that already get paid more than them, whilst using out of date kit; oh, and when they get back, they're off to Basrah for 4 months.
And let's not forget the pleasure involved in watching a civvie company get 3 grand a day for arsing everyone around for a week, telling you tidy up your hangar and call it 'leaning'.
Like many contributors, I've loved my time in and loved the contribution I've managed to make in my small way, but there comes a time when the 2-way loyalty becomes distinctly uni-directional....
The thing that will mean I leave at my option is a career of watching the honest gifted leaders leave and of seeing chiselling non-achievers administrate their way into Flt and Sqn Cdr slots.
(No bitterness here - I don't fall into either category)
As for other rants, can I also offer the (slightly old but still valid) experience of telling your subordinates that they will be working long shifts to cover striking firemen that already get paid more than them, whilst using out of date kit; oh, and when they get back, they're off to Basrah for 4 months.
And let's not forget the pleasure involved in watching a civvie company get 3 grand a day for arsing everyone around for a week, telling you tidy up your hangar and call it 'leaning'.
Like many contributors, I've loved my time in and loved the contribution I've managed to make in my small way, but there comes a time when the 2-way loyalty becomes distinctly uni-directional....
Join Date: Nov 2005
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What's the problem?.....It is that there is no fat in the system.
I enlisted in 1978, RAF strength @ 103,000. In addition to my primary duty I also played Station and Command sport, went on expeds, completed education and service courses. All these things developed my fitness, my teamwork and leadership skills and prepared me to be a better serviceman. These things tended to develop an esprite de corps and pride of service and gave us "tools" that we could use in our primary role.
Today, because we are so thin on the ground, it is rare that individuals can be spared from the Sqn to attend any character building activity. We arrive on duty complete our nine hour shift, spend an hour or two on secondary duties, try to get to the Gym for an hour and then retire home ready for the next day.
Sometimes my working day is extended because the efficient RAF supplier/caterer/engineer has been replaced by some left-wing unionist civvy who couldn't possibly provide service during his tea break..2 mins past 5 o clock (etc etc).
I'm also doing more jobs on Station because there are fewer "blue suits" to go around. I must provide airmen for the Station Guard force and at the same time, adhere to the European Working Time directive!! additionally I am to ensure that I keep fit, take my full leave entitlement, be fully up to date with CCS, IDS, EO briefs....you get the picture.
For me the biggest change over the years is that the Armed Forces is no longer a way of life, it's become just another job. everthing that allowed us to become unique specific to our role, and produced unique individuals has been gradually ground away. Don't get me wrong, individuals joining today are of no less quality than say 15 years ago, but the opportunities for them to demonstrate their talents have been massively eroded.
Ahhhh...that feels better. Chest much lighter.
I enlisted in 1978, RAF strength @ 103,000. In addition to my primary duty I also played Station and Command sport, went on expeds, completed education and service courses. All these things developed my fitness, my teamwork and leadership skills and prepared me to be a better serviceman. These things tended to develop an esprite de corps and pride of service and gave us "tools" that we could use in our primary role.
Today, because we are so thin on the ground, it is rare that individuals can be spared from the Sqn to attend any character building activity. We arrive on duty complete our nine hour shift, spend an hour or two on secondary duties, try to get to the Gym for an hour and then retire home ready for the next day.
Sometimes my working day is extended because the efficient RAF supplier/caterer/engineer has been replaced by some left-wing unionist civvy who couldn't possibly provide service during his tea break..2 mins past 5 o clock (etc etc).
I'm also doing more jobs on Station because there are fewer "blue suits" to go around. I must provide airmen for the Station Guard force and at the same time, adhere to the European Working Time directive!! additionally I am to ensure that I keep fit, take my full leave entitlement, be fully up to date with CCS, IDS, EO briefs....you get the picture.
For me the biggest change over the years is that the Armed Forces is no longer a way of life, it's become just another job. everthing that allowed us to become unique specific to our role, and produced unique individuals has been gradually ground away. Don't get me wrong, individuals joining today are of no less quality than say 15 years ago, but the opportunities for them to demonstrate their talents have been massively eroded.
Ahhhh...that feels better. Chest much lighter.
Join Date: May 2000
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Helpful Stacker....
Opening hours for stores etc.
What's so difficult about staggering lunch breaks etc in order that some level of service can be maintained over traditional "lunch hours"?
And besides, I agree clothing stores etc have always had limited hours, but nowadays everywhere has jumped on the EU working practice bandwagon (assuming the request for a bandwagon was submitted to MT not less than 36 hours in advance, in triplicate and isn't required outside normal working hours or at weekends).
I need a new ID photo, so that's Wednesdays between 10:00 and 11:00...... ONLY
New car pass? Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday between 10:00 and midday, assuming the ONE civilian who apparently owns all the car pass IT hardware isn't on leave.
Fitness test? Thursday, 11am, no negotiation.
And so on.
There's more flex on a Pifco travel kettle.
It's why I've now adopted a strict 9-5 attitude myself with my own personal "Hour off in lieu for every hour past five" regime.
Opening hours for stores etc.
What's so difficult about staggering lunch breaks etc in order that some level of service can be maintained over traditional "lunch hours"?
And besides, I agree clothing stores etc have always had limited hours, but nowadays everywhere has jumped on the EU working practice bandwagon (assuming the request for a bandwagon was submitted to MT not less than 36 hours in advance, in triplicate and isn't required outside normal working hours or at weekends).
I need a new ID photo, so that's Wednesdays between 10:00 and 11:00...... ONLY
New car pass? Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday between 10:00 and midday, assuming the ONE civilian who apparently owns all the car pass IT hardware isn't on leave.
Fitness test? Thursday, 11am, no negotiation.
And so on.
There's more flex on a Pifco travel kettle.
It's why I've now adopted a strict 9-5 attitude myself with my own personal "Hour off in lieu for every hour past five" regime.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Magp1e,
Couldn't agree more but then a politician understands little about military ethos and REAL effectiveness and efficiency.
I have just checked my outstanding leave balance and have 18 days to take between 4 Jan 06 and 28 Feb 06; having checked my diary and spoke to the Boss, I cannot use it so I will only have had 2 and a bit weeks off all year. This might be acceptable as a one-off or with the knowledge that I will be able to take the 45 days I will have next year but Septic Peg predictions are for more of the same. When does it stop? Probably when I break! Oh, and don't anybody try with the manage it more effectively cr@p, that is what both the Boss and I have been trying to do.
Back to the thread, TR has hit the nail on the head with regard to the symptoms but I think we are all struggling for a solution. One thing is alomost certain, cuts in military manpower will not increase "efficiency", no matter how you label it.
Couldn't agree more but then a politician understands little about military ethos and REAL effectiveness and efficiency.
I have just checked my outstanding leave balance and have 18 days to take between 4 Jan 06 and 28 Feb 06; having checked my diary and spoke to the Boss, I cannot use it so I will only have had 2 and a bit weeks off all year. This might be acceptable as a one-off or with the knowledge that I will be able to take the 45 days I will have next year but Septic Peg predictions are for more of the same. When does it stop? Probably when I break! Oh, and don't anybody try with the manage it more effectively cr@p, that is what both the Boss and I have been trying to do.
Back to the thread, TR has hit the nail on the head with regard to the symptoms but I think we are all struggling for a solution. One thing is alomost certain, cuts in military manpower will not increase "efficiency", no matter how you label it.
Avoid imitations
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Those thinking the 9 hour shift followed by a one hour secondary duty is tough going might like to reflect on the 14 hour working day target some of us are "enjoying" outside. Social life non-existent and not so much leave either 
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I think in nearly ten years since I have left the RAF has probably tried to re-align itself too much with business procedures and got away from what it is - a military force. I probably work a lot harder than I did in the RAF now -however I always get thanks for what I do and possibly a little respect from customers and our dealer network.
This I feel is possibly lacking in the RAF -there seems to be a clamour to get rid of the engineering talent as soon as they get into a position where they can make a real difference.
I am sure the highways of Great Britain is now getting clogged with ex CT's and Sergeants who have very much done their bit but have tired of the ceaseless penny pinching and doing more with less. Certainly there was 'fat' to get rid of in the system but why completely bizarre base closures like Finningley
which filled many purposes and keep tiny little airfields of little
use. Maybe a general distrust of the higher echelons with their ability to move sideways rather than join the job centre queues
has done serious damage to morale - maybe the barber's phrase 'would you like a little more off the top ' is something the
RAF needs to embrace !
This I feel is possibly lacking in the RAF -there seems to be a clamour to get rid of the engineering talent as soon as they get into a position where they can make a real difference.
I am sure the highways of Great Britain is now getting clogged with ex CT's and Sergeants who have very much done their bit but have tired of the ceaseless penny pinching and doing more with less. Certainly there was 'fat' to get rid of in the system but why completely bizarre base closures like Finningley
which filled many purposes and keep tiny little airfields of little
use. Maybe a general distrust of the higher echelons with their ability to move sideways rather than join the job centre queues
has done serious damage to morale - maybe the barber's phrase 'would you like a little more off the top ' is something the
RAF needs to embrace !
So what will you do with the rest of your time? Take turns in the barrel or practice knot tying?
6Z3 is in the right place to know exactly how things are looking for the grey funnel line's fliers.
6Z3 is in the right place to know exactly how things are looking for the grey funnel line's fliers.
What's the problem?
Try a permanent 55-60 hr week, every week, doing your own duties plus covering 2 other posts, with no recognition of what you are doing, and on occassions a bare acknowledgement of your existance from the execs who only want to know when you're needed to do something they can't be bothered to do or to get them out of the brown and smelly. On top of that, try being told you aren't doing enough secondary duties, because the Boss doesn't like the ones you do, although there's no one else to do them. And don't even get me started about PMA and career management.
Try the tail permanently wagging the dog. CIS Eng monkeys whose job it is to make your job harder by not giving you the kit you need to carry out your role or stores that store rather than issue. Admin for admins sake and the 'sh*t floats' theory of the decent guys leaving and the dross getting promoted to re-enforce the system as it stands. It's the week before Christmas and I still have 30 days leave to somehow fit in ...... fat chance. But I'll no doubt tbe told it's my own fault by some chiseller in Handbrake House who's concept of going on ops is to do their CCS once every 2 years.
And you know it's all gone horribly wrong when you'd rather be on ops because life in Iraq is easier than life on the unit in the UK. How screwed up is that?!
And that in a nut shell is why I'll be taking my next option!
Try a permanent 55-60 hr week, every week, doing your own duties plus covering 2 other posts, with no recognition of what you are doing, and on occassions a bare acknowledgement of your existance from the execs who only want to know when you're needed to do something they can't be bothered to do or to get them out of the brown and smelly. On top of that, try being told you aren't doing enough secondary duties, because the Boss doesn't like the ones you do, although there's no one else to do them. And don't even get me started about PMA and career management.
Try the tail permanently wagging the dog. CIS Eng monkeys whose job it is to make your job harder by not giving you the kit you need to carry out your role or stores that store rather than issue. Admin for admins sake and the 'sh*t floats' theory of the decent guys leaving and the dross getting promoted to re-enforce the system as it stands. It's the week before Christmas and I still have 30 days leave to somehow fit in ...... fat chance. But I'll no doubt tbe told it's my own fault by some chiseller in Handbrake House who's concept of going on ops is to do their CCS once every 2 years.
And you know it's all gone horribly wrong when you'd rather be on ops because life in Iraq is easier than life on the unit in the UK. How screwed up is that?!
And that in a nut shell is why I'll be taking my next option!
Guys, girls,
The people you should be moaning at are your Personnel Liaison Team. I have said it before. Ask them why you do not have this?
Click here and select personnel functional standards
I recommend that you read the foreword by 1SL. I am sure that the regulations within this document probably apply to the RAF as well but, they are sitting in some draw gathering dust. Get such a document produced and then you can report deficiencies to the highest level.
The people you should be moaning at are your Personnel Liaison Team. I have said it before. Ask them why you do not have this?
Click here and select personnel functional standards
I recommend that you read the foreword by 1SL. I am sure that the regulations within this document probably apply to the RAF as well but, they are sitting in some draw gathering dust. Get such a document produced and then you can report deficiencies to the highest level.
Last edited by Widger; 15th Dec 2005 at 15:21.
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Couldn't agree with Melchett more about prefering being on Ops to life on a Stn - less working hours for a start! Maybe that's what the politicians intended, hoping that we would all be so grateful to do more ops; how about extending OOAs to 6 months or more anybody?
Join Date: Apr 2005
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People keep going on about "tail wagging the dog" so here's a question for you 'knowledgeable' types, where exactly in your ever so humble opinions does the tail start and the dog begin?
My starter for one; the dog is the infantry, everything else is tail.
Obviously being ex-Infantry myself I could be a little biased....
My starter for one; the dog is the infantry, everything else is tail.
Obviously being ex-Infantry myself I could be a little biased....
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Well, how about:
"Hello tanker pool, can we have a bowser and some fuel please so we tail enders can go and be wagged by some infantry dog-types please? What's that? Not until after the (only) bowser driver is back from his fitness test?"
Thinks: Never mind, I'll order the rations instead.
"Hello JRM, four x 8-hour flying rations please. No I didn't order them last night. Why not? Well the task has only just been generated. But we've assembled a crew and generated an aircraft, can't you even throw some choccy bars and pop in a box for us to graze on during the trip? What's that? That'd mean Chef working past 9pm, oh ok we'll go without"
"Hello tanker pool, can we have a bowser and some fuel please so we tail enders can go and be wagged by some infantry dog-types please? What's that? Not until after the (only) bowser driver is back from his fitness test?"
Thinks: Never mind, I'll order the rations instead.
"Hello JRM, four x 8-hour flying rations please. No I didn't order them last night. Why not? Well the task has only just been generated. But we've assembled a crew and generated an aircraft, can't you even throw some choccy bars and pop in a box for us to graze on during the trip? What's that? That'd mean Chef working past 9pm, oh ok we'll go without"
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PFS
Widger
PFS is a good effort by the RN to ensure the wellbeing and development of it's personnel; TOPMAST too, is another good idea. Sadly, the RAF is not enlightened enough, or possibly too scared of the ramifications, to publish such a document...... It would cause consternation in the AT, ISR and SH fleets and probably in 'handbrake houses' where it would have to managed and reported against. Actually telling personnel their entitlements and what they can expect would never catch on....... For years there have been 2 parts to the RAF; those who enjoy the full benefits of service life with none of those irksome things like deployments and wars and then there is the rest of the service.
Jack and Jill enjoy the support of their seniors in the form of PFS and it's about time the RAF did something similar. If nothing else it would give some missed targets to report every month.......
PFS is a good effort by the RN to ensure the wellbeing and development of it's personnel; TOPMAST too, is another good idea. Sadly, the RAF is not enlightened enough, or possibly too scared of the ramifications, to publish such a document...... It would cause consternation in the AT, ISR and SH fleets and probably in 'handbrake houses' where it would have to managed and reported against. Actually telling personnel their entitlements and what they can expect would never catch on....... For years there have been 2 parts to the RAF; those who enjoy the full benefits of service life with none of those irksome things like deployments and wars and then there is the rest of the service.
Jack and Jill enjoy the support of their seniors in the form of PFS and it's about time the RAF did something similar. If nothing else it would give some missed targets to report every month.......
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"Hello tanker pool, can we have a bowser and some fuel please so we tail enders can go and be wagged by some infantry dog-types please? What's that? Not until after the (only) bowser driver is back from his fitness test?"
"Hello JRM, four x 8-hour flying rations please. No I didn't order them last night. Why not? Well the task has only just been generated. But we've assembled a crew and generated an aircraft, can't you even throw some choccy bars and pop in a box for us to graze on during the trip? What's that? That'd mean Chef working past 9pm, oh ok we'll go without"
If a scenario such as that did happen it would call into question the lack of duty cover.Going back to an earlier point about clothing stores etc, Supply Squadrons have duty personnel to cover such things as states for a/c parts etc but clothing is very rarely a priority. People should organise their lives a bit better and not try blaming a section such as clothing stores for having restricted opening hours.
An example I remember of late was an officer who had put his No.5 uniform in for tailoring but couldn't be bothered to take 5 minutes out of his busy life to collect it during opening hours. As a result he called out the duty supplier in an attempt to get his uniform on the Saturday afternoon before a mess function. When informed this (junior) officer could poke it (but in a more polite manner) he threatened to charge the hapless SAC, who had more pressing issues (no pun intended) running around like a man possessed fulfilling P and D states. Needless to say the threatened charge went nowhere and an ever so slightly humbled officer was advised to apologise to said stacker the following week.
Now why do I tell you this? Well unfortunately it seems that more and more now days poor admin by personnel is blamed on others rather than accepted as their very own little **** up, and usually its the people who are apparently the furthest from the sharp end that get the most stick from those at said sharp end. In part some of this is LEAN related (LEAN seems to be official sanctioning for slopey shoulders) but much is just down to the "oh I'm so very important" attitude that is appearing in those that really aren't (like a certain CT who chewed out one of my Fwd Del lads for delivering a part that the CT had demanded incorrectly).
Anyway, I know this slice of home truth will probably get the usual hostile reception from the line-Gods and wondermen/women in grow bags who can do no wrong but as us blunties are used to taking the flak for your poor admin I'm well used to it.
