SAR Force.... to be or not to be.....
SAR Force.... to be or not to be.....
So, SAR chappies everywhere. What future do you have? How much life does the mighty yellow taxi have left in it? And what are we going to do when the old bird can't leave the nest anymore? Contract? Or go the canadian way and merlinize?
How are we set for manning at the mo as well? Undermanned/Overworked like some parts of the fleet, or massively overmanned and still overworked like the rest>?
Thoughts and points, slightly curious because we dont seem to hear that much from the boys in yellow, so they must have a hard paper round!
How are we set for manning at the mo as well? Undermanned/Overworked like some parts of the fleet, or massively overmanned and still overworked like the rest>?
Thoughts and points, slightly curious because we dont seem to hear that much from the boys in yellow, so they must have a hard paper round!
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Don't forget the boys in grey......
and orange/red!
(Only kidding Taffer, if I were floating around the sea I'd be happy to see any SAR Sea Kings, proper ones or Royal Navy)
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We need the banana as a dedicated platform to pick up downed aircrew. Will a civvie SAR guy en route to picking up a group of drowning schoolgirls change his routing halfway due to pick up a Harrier mate in a field first? Don't think so..........
LuckyBreak,
What an outrageous statement to make!
Are you really trying to say that a RAF SAR crew WOULD ignore a group of drowning schoolgirls to pick up a Harrier mate in a field?
Who the hell do you think provides most of the current UK SAR capability?
Stupid post................................
What an outrageous statement to make!
Are you really trying to say that a RAF SAR crew WOULD ignore a group of drowning schoolgirls to pick up a Harrier mate in a field?
Who the hell do you think provides most of the current UK SAR capability?
Stupid post................................
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Pr00ne
The RAF provides 6 SAR flights in UK and one in the Falklands(yellow), one( OK a Sqn in name) in Cyprus (grey with fetching blue stripe), the RN two (grey / red), and Bristows on behalf of HM Coastguard four (white / red).
The RAF have Mil aircrew as their top priority, so all else being equal the Harrier mate comes before the girlies.
But all else is never equal.
Apart from anything else wouldn't the Harrier mate rather have a bunch of wet schoolgirls waiting to greet him?
Sven
The RAF provides 6 SAR flights in UK and one in the Falklands(yellow), one( OK a Sqn in name) in Cyprus (grey with fetching blue stripe), the RN two (grey / red), and Bristows on behalf of HM Coastguard four (white / red).
The RAF have Mil aircrew as their top priority, so all else being equal the Harrier mate comes before the girlies.
But all else is never equal.
Apart from anything else wouldn't the Harrier mate rather have a bunch of wet schoolgirls waiting to greet him?
Sven
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Although I have never been a SARbouy, I do have some regard for their professionalism, and I doebt they would divert themselves away from a group of drowning people for any reason.
Rescue of military aircrew may be their official 'reason d'etre', but they would always balance the urgency of any demands upon their skills.
Rescue of military aircrew may be their official 'reason d'etre', but they would always balance the urgency of any demands upon their skills.
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PU
Technically it's the RCCs call as to what one does and in what order.
But as a practical matter I agree. You would have a very difficult time convincing me that a bona mate on land was more in need of our services than a bunch of people in the water.
Our HF can be dreadfully unreliable ...
(and there are quite a lot of us in any case)
Sven
Technically it's the RCCs call as to what one does and in what order.
But as a practical matter I agree. You would have a very difficult time convincing me that a bona mate on land was more in need of our services than a bunch of people in the water.
Our HF can be dreadfully unreliable ...
(and there are quite a lot of us in any case)
Sven
Last edited by Sven Sixtoo; 6th Oct 2005 at 09:39.
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Are you really trying to say that a RAF SAR crew WOULD ignore a group of drowning schoolgirls to pick up a Harrier mate in a field?
Don't forget the standby crews/overlapping SAR assets
Lol, an interesting debate!Know which should be top of the priority list..... Can we see a big yellow merlin in the future? Surely the old girl must be nearly at the end of her teather? Or will bristow just get the rest of the coverage when the sea king gives up the ghost?
Apologies to those in slightly more questionable areas of service no offence intended, and believe me, I'm all to aware of the job the rest do! Was more a q related to the yellow taxi SK as opposed the shiny kit that the rest get
Apologies to those in slightly more questionable areas of service
no offence intended, and believe me, I'm all to aware of the job the rest do! Was more a q related to the yellow taxi SK as opposed the shiny kit that the rest get
The interim contract for 2007 (for the 4 flights that MCA run using Bristows helis) is under negotiation at the moment and the clever money is on it to provide the blueprint for a full UK SAR contract in 2012.
The main bidders, to my knowledge are CHC who are offering a full package of different aircraft to meet the differing area requirements and have thought through the need to train pilots if the military stops doing SAR and Bristows who have offered more of what they already provide - S61s on which they claim they can fit a 360 degree radar by the tailwheel.
I think I know who will come in as the cheapest bidder so it remains for the MCA to decide if it wants to continue with pseudo-serviceable aircraft (it is serviceable on the tote right up to the point you ask for it and discover it's U/S and should have been declared that way cos it had an engine out on the hangar floor)or try something different.
The RAFSAR force is being neatly packaged and sent to Valley (where it doesn't fit) which will make it easier to hand over in one lump when the contract is let. If we have to blob up the SARFHQ, both SqnHQs and the OCU, at least do it at a place which has the real estate, the airspace and an excellent weather factor - Chivenor seems to be a top scorer in all categories and it's not in North Wales!!
The main bidders, to my knowledge are CHC who are offering a full package of different aircraft to meet the differing area requirements and have thought through the need to train pilots if the military stops doing SAR and Bristows who have offered more of what they already provide - S61s on which they claim they can fit a 360 degree radar by the tailwheel.
I think I know who will come in as the cheapest bidder so it remains for the MCA to decide if it wants to continue with pseudo-serviceable aircraft (it is serviceable on the tote right up to the point you ask for it and discover it's U/S and should have been declared that way cos it had an engine out on the hangar floor)or try something different.
The RAFSAR force is being neatly packaged and sent to Valley (where it doesn't fit) which will make it easier to hand over in one lump when the contract is let. If we have to blob up the SARFHQ, both SqnHQs and the OCU, at least do it at a place which has the real estate, the airspace and an excellent weather factor - Chivenor seems to be a top scorer in all categories and it's not in North Wales!!
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AW Merlin SAR / CSAR
Went to a RAeS bash this week, where Mr. Agusta Westland was extolling the virtues of the Merlin over S-92 etc.
Having won Marine 1 VVIP role for POTAS, Mr. AW is now very keen to win USAF AFSOC CSAR replacement and also US Coastguard contracts. If the Yanks pay for the development work would Merlin not make a good RAF SAR / CSAR platform? (Of course it would, if you believe the AW vids and the heroic Cormorant story.....)
Also, are informed viewers here suggesting that the RAF / FAA will relinquish all SAR work to a PPP/PFI contractor? Not happy now - no more Leconfield Brylcream boys over Whitby... Boo hoo..
Having won Marine 1 VVIP role for POTAS, Mr. AW is now very keen to win USAF AFSOC CSAR replacement and also US Coastguard contracts. If the Yanks pay for the development work would Merlin not make a good RAF SAR / CSAR platform? (Of course it would, if you believe the AW vids and the heroic Cormorant story.....)
Also, are informed viewers here suggesting that the RAF / FAA will relinquish all SAR work to a PPP/PFI contractor? Not happy now - no more Leconfield Brylcream boys over Whitby... Boo hoo..
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Ok... cat into the pigeon loft... go!
What is the MOD doing providing dedlicated SAR for anyway? Why not leave it to the Coastguards, RNLI, or whatever Govt department is seen fit?...
Because of Combat SAR... don't make me laugh? Can anyone tell me when, ever, dedicated UK SAR assets have been deployed into an active operational theatre... NO, didn't think so! In fact current theatre commanders, being sensible chaps, make do when the need arises with the various assets they have on hand (CH47 Puma, SKG4 etc etc)... so lets keep SAR a secondary task for SH... save the yellow paint and contracterise the rest?
What is the MOD doing providing dedlicated SAR for anyway? Why not leave it to the Coastguards, RNLI, or whatever Govt department is seen fit?...
Because of Combat SAR... don't make me laugh? Can anyone tell me when, ever, dedicated UK SAR assets have been deployed into an active operational theatre... NO, didn't think so! In fact current theatre commanders, being sensible chaps, make do when the need arises with the various assets they have on hand (CH47 Puma, SKG4 etc etc)... so lets keep SAR a secondary task for SH... save the yellow paint and contracterise the rest?
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You could call the Falklands a deployed SAR operation? But not in the terms you refer to. My personal view is that the UK SARF should have grasped the CSAR mantle and used that as its reason for remaining 100% military.
But you all forget one point.
A secondary role for ALL helicopter aircrew is SAR. Its nice if you have seen it before though, soooooo, we will still need some SAR trained crews to spread the techniques through the SH force and through new crews joining now. Yes, at the moment there may well be 'enough' people around to cater for this but, you can't rely on that as a plan, so you have to put in place some system that covers replacing the current SAR gods with more modest deities of the future.
And So to the future? How about a SAR Force based on the DHFS system? COMR ac and a mil/civ mix? And why not?
However, pba_target, the tone of your initial post suggests journo to me fishing for some juicy gossip to print. There isn't any we have been round this buoy numerous times so its old news!
The Sea King is old, but hey, what isn't these days!
But you all forget one point.
A secondary role for ALL helicopter aircrew is SAR. Its nice if you have seen it before though, soooooo, we will still need some SAR trained crews to spread the techniques through the SH force and through new crews joining now. Yes, at the moment there may well be 'enough' people around to cater for this but, you can't rely on that as a plan, so you have to put in place some system that covers replacing the current SAR gods with more modest deities of the future.
And So to the future? How about a SAR Force based on the DHFS system? COMR ac and a mil/civ mix? And why not?
However, pba_target, the tone of your initial post suggests journo to me fishing for some juicy gossip to print. There isn't any we have been round this buoy numerous times so its old news!
The Sea King is old, but hey, what isn't these days!
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PA, using your argument lets
Contractorise all UK dedicated tasks
SAR
All military training
All second and third line servicing
MOD
UK Air Defence
And a host of others.
Then we could have the 21000 RAF as mentioned on another thread with a lot of very upset people unable to break the deployment cycle.
Of course a UK dedicated SAR asset hasn’t deployed on ops as it is er UK dedicated.
There is of course an example of SAR deploying subsequently when the host nation cannot provide the asset (FI).
The main skill of the SAR Asset is over water recovery at night, something that our dark blue cousins are more than capable of doing on deployed ops. SAR is not a secondary task for SH, CSAR is, which is a different ball game all together.
There is a lot of cross pollination between the deployable front line and SAR, both RAF and Navy, skills that would be lost in any future PFI.
Now where are those pigeons!!!!
R1a
Contractorise all UK dedicated tasks
SAR
All military training
All second and third line servicing
MOD
UK Air Defence
And a host of others.
Then we could have the 21000 RAF as mentioned on another thread with a lot of very upset people unable to break the deployment cycle.
Of course a UK dedicated SAR asset hasn’t deployed on ops as it is er UK dedicated.
There is of course an example of SAR deploying subsequently when the host nation cannot provide the asset (FI).
The main skill of the SAR Asset is over water recovery at night, something that our dark blue cousins are more than capable of doing on deployed ops. SAR is not a secondary task for SH, CSAR is, which is a different ball game all together.
There is a lot of cross pollination between the deployable front line and SAR, both RAF and Navy, skills that would be lost in any future PFI.
Now where are those pigeons!!!!
R1a
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SAR
I thought the RAF invented CSAR in the dark days of 1940, but with speedboats rather than aircraft i.e. getting to the aircrew floating in the middle of the English Channel before the German E-boats.
There must be a 2010 SAR Vision amongst the Sea King 'first responder' community, surely ? Or are they resigned to their fate (and waiting for job offers from Bristows, Bond et al)?
There must be a 2010 SAR Vision amongst the Sea King 'first responder' community, surely ? Or are they resigned to their fate (and waiting for job offers from Bristows, Bond et al)?
SARREMF, don't worry, no danger of me being a journo (although redundancy is tempting can't spell so would never make it!
Role1a...... take a stab at the only (just about) part of your list that isn't being contractorised!
It would be quite nice to have a decent deployable CSAR force who doubled as peacetime SAR cover though wouldn't it? Make half the fleet deployable at any time or such like? Cost a bloody fortune, but would be quite a nice little gem to have in your back pocket.
Plus the yellow taxi is good PR, but that'll never hold water!
can't spell so would never make it!Role1a...... take a stab at the only (just about) part of your list that isn't being contractorised!
It would be quite nice to have a decent deployable CSAR force who doubled as peacetime SAR cover though wouldn't it? Make half the fleet deployable at any time or such like? Cost a bloody fortune, but would be quite a nice little gem to have in your back pocket.
Plus the yellow taxi is good PR, but that'll never hold water!
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FrogPrince
IIRC the Luftwaffe had a superior SAR capability during the BoB using anchored floating platforms and Dornier seaplanes.
I'm led to understand that although the RAF boats and the occasional Walrus were good at grabbing our blokes, the German infrastructure was superior. See the sequence of photos of the ditched Bf.110 in Len Deighton's fighter.
IIRC the Luftwaffe had a superior SAR capability during the BoB using anchored floating platforms and Dornier seaplanes.
I'm led to understand that although the RAF boats and the occasional Walrus were good at grabbing our blokes, the German infrastructure was superior. See the sequence of photos of the ditched Bf.110 in Len Deighton's fighter.