Saluting the ensign.
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Saluting the Ensign
How pleasing to see that the long fought for traditions of the RAF are being brought down to if you should wear a pair of work overalls or a smart uniform to perform the duties that you received your Queens Commission for. I'm sure if you checked in QR's, the more 'less time in' might realise there is no arguement. How can you check a defaulter when you look like a gardener with a pair or wings applied by celotape. Feel the pride and wear the uniform, one of those defaulters might be removing yor seat pins next week!
As more military jobs are given to civilians, I suggest that they take their turn at this duty. Suits and female equivalent dress to be worn.
New Flag times of up at 0930 and down at 1530 will be required.
Still cannot understand why Military are required to stop and face the flag, and civilians are requested (some refusing) to halt.
New Flag times of up at 0930 and down at 1530 will be required.
Still cannot understand why Military are required to stop and face the flag, and civilians are requested (some refusing) to halt.
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First post so please forgive any inadvertant transgressions of conventions.
I have lurked on this forum for many many months and have, at last, found a subject that goads me into words. It isn't so much what to wear for SDO duty that winds me up, it is the fact that anyone outside Admin Wg has to do it at all!
Consider, what have you been called out for in the past? I suggest that The raising and lowering of the ensign are ceremonial duties and therefore are a P1 responsibility. Similarly, defaulters are a disciplinary matter, also P1. Faults in MQs are now reported to DHE by occupiers and emergency works services in messes and barrack blocks are a SSS responsibility. All of these are Admin Wg matters. Any personnel matters fall within the P2 purview.
I'm sure that I will be corrected but I can't off the top of my head think of anything that an SDO does that is not either an Admin Wg function or covered by Duty Ops Officer, Duty Supplier etc.
All the other wgs on a Stn have a duty bod to fulfill their out of hours duties, so why does Admin Wg find it necessary to palm off their OOH duty on the rest of us?
I have lurked on this forum for many many months and have, at last, found a subject that goads me into words. It isn't so much what to wear for SDO duty that winds me up, it is the fact that anyone outside Admin Wg has to do it at all!
Consider, what have you been called out for in the past? I suggest that The raising and lowering of the ensign are ceremonial duties and therefore are a P1 responsibility. Similarly, defaulters are a disciplinary matter, also P1. Faults in MQs are now reported to DHE by occupiers and emergency works services in messes and barrack blocks are a SSS responsibility. All of these are Admin Wg matters. Any personnel matters fall within the P2 purview.
I'm sure that I will be corrected but I can't off the top of my head think of anything that an SDO does that is not either an Admin Wg function or covered by Duty Ops Officer, Duty Supplier etc.
All the other wgs on a Stn have a duty bod to fulfill their out of hours duties, so why does Admin Wg find it necessary to palm off their OOH duty on the rest of us?
Thread Starter
Kzintzi
Perhaps if you could climb down from your lofty perch up there on your favourite horse you could re-read the previous posts and realise that at no point has the issue of inspecting defaulters in flying suits even been suggested. I agree that should be done in a smart uniform with polished shoes and straight tie etc.
The issue being discussed is purely the ensign duty.
Switch on man. I mean really.
BV
The issue being discussed is purely the ensign duty.
Switch on man. I mean really.
BV
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I have just chanced upon this thread and apart from what one wears to salute the ensign twice a day, what does the ceremony actually signify and do we need to do it, other than because we always have? Does it mark the opening and closing of the working day, is it a gesture of respect to HM who owns the facilities and pays our wages? The ensign is up all day and down at night, so what? Why do we do it and would life stop if we didn't? Discuss please.
I spent a couple of months on an Army station recently and the Union Jack stayed up 24-7. And I thought the Army were supposed to be the brave bastions of tradition!
Only time it budged was (rightly) to lower to half-mast as a sign of respect after the London bombings.
Only time it budged was (rightly) to lower to half-mast as a sign of respect after the London bombings.
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Back into the debate.
As stated on Page 1 the role of the SDO is to be the Stn Cdr's rep during the 'down period' from COP to restart (ie. overnight). Some stations have traditionally also appointed an OO to act as the SDO's gopher. However, dependent upon local circumstance, these duties can be, and have been, amalgamated. Because one is representing the Staish, one wears uniform (either No 1 or No 2 dependent upon local orders). The lowering of the ensign is a tradition that signifies the end of the day's routine work (stand by night-flying etc) whether it be 1800 or 1600 (summer or winter) and the 0800 raising indicates the start of the day. It is also a tradition that an officer, nominally the CO's rep, salutes the ensign as a mark of respect, whilst an NCO executes the act and all military personnel within earshot of the whistle blast(s) stand to attention (officers saluting). Civilians on military units are not bound by these traditions and, thankfully, never will be (the fewer the better IMHO). But you knew all that! As far as I am aware the Army and Navy have similar 'Sunset' ceremonies.
So, it goes without saying that, the SWO in Ireland was an ar$e, who got what he deserved! But if you are officer or NCO aircrew you do your respective duty like everyone else and, during the down period, you wear the appropriate uniform which is not a flying suit. If, because of flying programming and demands on currency etc, you have to and unavoidably go night flying and cannot arrange a total duty swap, then you take your responsibility and arrange for someone to take over your duty for that period when you are unavailable.
That's the way we aircrew have always resolved it and I cannot think of a reason why circumstance might have changed.
Anyway, who better to represent the Staish than the master race!?
Doh! Ruined it!
As stated on Page 1 the role of the SDO is to be the Stn Cdr's rep during the 'down period' from COP to restart (ie. overnight). Some stations have traditionally also appointed an OO to act as the SDO's gopher. However, dependent upon local circumstance, these duties can be, and have been, amalgamated. Because one is representing the Staish, one wears uniform (either No 1 or No 2 dependent upon local orders). The lowering of the ensign is a tradition that signifies the end of the day's routine work (stand by night-flying etc) whether it be 1800 or 1600 (summer or winter) and the 0800 raising indicates the start of the day. It is also a tradition that an officer, nominally the CO's rep, salutes the ensign as a mark of respect, whilst an NCO executes the act and all military personnel within earshot of the whistle blast(s) stand to attention (officers saluting). Civilians on military units are not bound by these traditions and, thankfully, never will be (the fewer the better IMHO). But you knew all that! As far as I am aware the Army and Navy have similar 'Sunset' ceremonies.
So, it goes without saying that, the SWO in Ireland was an ar$e, who got what he deserved! But if you are officer or NCO aircrew you do your respective duty like everyone else and, during the down period, you wear the appropriate uniform which is not a flying suit. If, because of flying programming and demands on currency etc, you have to and unavoidably go night flying and cannot arrange a total duty swap, then you take your responsibility and arrange for someone to take over your duty for that period when you are unavailable.
That's the way we aircrew have always resolved it and I cannot think of a reason why circumstance might have changed.
Anyway, who better to represent the Staish than the master race!?
Doh! Ruined it!
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As you rightly say, the SDO is the rep for Harry during out of hours times and the "Flag waiving" signifies the start and end of the normal working day. Therefore by definition it should be the first and last duty of OC Bogs and Drains, and not the preserve of the chap(ess) who is trying to plan/get something useful out of the debrief.
See, the rules do work in our favour sometimes. Now, who's going to start the petition?
CBA
See, the rules do work in our favour sometimes. Now, who's going to start the petition?
CBA
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Ensign stuff
Fg Off Bloggs, I salute you, (well obviously, you hold a commission!) This is the point I have been attempting to make, in this thread and others, that aircrew occifers are as much a part of the niff naff, trivia and service traditions as everyone else. It saddens me to read so many posts (hand grenades, wind ups or serious) where a member of the aircrew cadre uses the fact he is what he is in order to explain his appaling lack of admin. Gentlemen, you are first and foremost members of the RAF, not the bide a wee rest home for gentlemen pilots!
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Having the duty performed by Admin functionaries makes a huge deal of sense, but there is also a sense of "sharing the wealth" - everybody does their turn at being OO so it comes around less frequently, and of course we can go down the overstretch/mucking in path of the argument.
However, until such a time that aircrew are exempt from taking their turn at orderly, the question remains, and as I see it, it comes down to 2 things.[list=1][*]It is a scutter to change in and out of blue[*]Performing the ceremonial duty in blue is the proper thing to do (from the book and from the heart)[/list=1]
weigh that up and decide where you stand.
However, until such a time that aircrew are exempt from taking their turn at orderly, the question remains, and as I see it, it comes down to 2 things.[list=1][*]It is a scutter to change in and out of blue[*]Performing the ceremonial duty in blue is the proper thing to do (from the book and from the heart)[/list=1]
weigh that up and decide where you stand.
Not long after the SWO was put back in his box, Aldergrove had the inspired idea of binning the OO and Duty SNCO altogether. Aldergrove had (has?) a huge number of on-duty personnel (Duty Clerk, Duty Armourers, 24hr RAFP shift + RAFP Officer always on duty, Duty Storemen, Duty Drivers etc etc) all of who were the first port of call for any problem. Solution was for one of the RAFP Cpls to be the ensign putter upper/taker downer, and the Duty RAFP Officer did the saluting, all other matters got dealt with by the approporiate on-duty expert.
Not sure if its still like that though
Not sure if its still like that though
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PCD,
As I said, local conditions apply and in the circumstances you describe very practical ones too, but on a routine station (what's one of those today?) there is absolutely no reason why aircrew should not take their turn just like everybody else.
It's called officers' responsibilities and, after all, aircrew are officers first and aircrew second; like it or not! To those that don't like, may I humbly suggest that you chose the wrong career and would be better off with the 'bucket & spade' brigade where you can do your flying when rostered and do your garden and whatever else takes your fancy during the long lay offs between sorties!
As I said in my post above:
I'm with incubus and stax! Get your uniform on and get the flag down (or up!)
Bloggs
As I said, local conditions apply and in the circumstances you describe very practical ones too, but on a routine station (what's one of those today?) there is absolutely no reason why aircrew should not take their turn just like everybody else.
It's called officers' responsibilities and, after all, aircrew are officers first and aircrew second; like it or not! To those that don't like, may I humbly suggest that you chose the wrong career and would be better off with the 'bucket & spade' brigade where you can do your flying when rostered and do your garden and whatever else takes your fancy during the long lay offs between sorties!
As I said in my post above:
if you are officer or NCO aircrew you do your respective duty like everyone else and, during the down period, you wear the appropriate uniform which is not a flying suit.
That's the way we aircrew have always resolved it and I cannot think of a reason why circumstance might have changed.
That's the way we aircrew have always resolved it and I cannot think of a reason why circumstance might have changed.
Bloggs
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Out of interest, what do other air forces do re Ensign up/down routine?
The uniform is usually just the uniform of the day (usually the blues -- typically shirt only in warm weather, and with a coat in colder weather). I think probably equivalent to what I've previously seen in this thread called #2 in the RAF? I've also seen it done in Battle Dress Uniform (BDU), which are the camouflaged fatigues.
The lowering and raising of the flag is accompanied by the appropriate music (reveille in the morning, retreat or taps in the evening) broadcast by loudspeaker throughout the base.
At the sound of the music, all personnel outdoors should stop and face the flagpole, or if not visible, then face the direction of the sound of the music. Military in any uniform render salute, civilians stand respectfully. All vehicle traffic should stop (assuming the music is heard).
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typically shirt only in warm weather
That'd be qute a sight!
typically shirt only in warm weather, and with a coat in colder weather
Fg Off Bloggs, it is a rare moment but I find myself agreeing with you!
It is indeed more convenient to do it in a flying suit, but it doesn't come round that often (although perhaps more often than it should given the numbers from some of the Squadrons who are away at any one time) and is, as incubus said, a ceremonial duty.
At least the rules requiring the OO to wear No 1s in the evening seem to have gone (unless inspecting defaulters etc etc before someone jumps down my throat)
It is indeed more convenient to do it in a flying suit, but it doesn't come round that often (although perhaps more often than it should given the numbers from some of the Squadrons who are away at any one time) and is, as incubus said, a ceremonial duty.
At least the rules requiring the OO to wear No 1s in the evening seem to have gone (unless inspecting defaulters etc etc before someone jumps down my throat)
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Alas, some of us still find ourselves squeezing into our No. 1s for SDO / OO duty post 1900!
At a previous unit of mine a few years back there was a spate of "no shows" at the ensign lowering, despite pilots being airborne / diverted etc. no excuses were taken. The powers that be then started an exponential increase in "punishment time" culminating with one pilot receiving 21 days straight of Orderly Officer - no kidding. Funnily enough no one seemed top forget after that.
Oh and Blues have always been the dress as far as I am aware although the Regt do appear to get away with CS95 I notice.
If you can't make it to the ensign in the right dress or whatever, why not speak to a mate in Admin or Air Traffic or wherever to see if they can do it for you? There is not so much of a them and us culture with aircrew / ground branch that someone wouldn't help out surely? - eg their office is right next to the ensign. I personally have helped people out in this regard on occasion even though I work away from SHQ.
At a previous unit of mine a few years back there was a spate of "no shows" at the ensign lowering, despite pilots being airborne / diverted etc. no excuses were taken. The powers that be then started an exponential increase in "punishment time" culminating with one pilot receiving 21 days straight of Orderly Officer - no kidding. Funnily enough no one seemed top forget after that.
Oh and Blues have always been the dress as far as I am aware although the Regt do appear to get away with CS95 I notice.
If you can't make it to the ensign in the right dress or whatever, why not speak to a mate in Admin or Air Traffic or wherever to see if they can do it for you? There is not so much of a them and us culture with aircrew / ground branch that someone wouldn't help out surely? - eg their office is right next to the ensign. I personally have helped people out in this regard on occasion even though I work away from SHQ.