Further London Explosions
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Oh yeah well done!! Not connected at all with yesterdays bombings it now seems!! Now it's ok to shoot people who are wearing a big coat in july and who run away from the police!!
Human rights people are going to have a very lucrative field day over this!!
Human rights people are going to have a very lucrative field day over this!!
Suspicion breeds confidence
He was being trailed as likely suspect. He jumped the ticket barrier, ran towards a train. Despite being challenged to stop he did not. The actions of the police were entirely appropriate and reasonable. Protection of the public comes first. I would have done the same thing. The officers concerned are to be congratulated. I welcome a similar course of action under similar circumstances in the future. We are at war.
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Naval
Well I do suspect that, unlike the poor Iraq squaddies who are up for courts martial, these policemen will be protected by their chain of command. For a while anyways!
Well I do suspect that, unlike the poor Iraq squaddies who are up for courts martial, these policemen will be protected by their chain of command. For a while anyways!
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Well I do suspect that, unlike the poor Iraq squaddies who are up for courts martial, these policemen will be protected by their chain of command. For a while anyways!
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For pete's sake! Stop cringeing. This is a state of extreme concern and if someone is suspected and he won't stop when challenged then the ultimate occurs. That is NOW the ROE according to the police - shoot to kill. What the hell is wrong with that?
Would you prefer that they didn't get to him/them and he/they detonate on the bloody train! Get real. This a REAL situation. If these people want to live by the sword then they die by it. I am happy with that!
Would you prefer that they didn't get to him/them and he/they detonate on the bloody train! Get real. This a REAL situation. If these people want to live by the sword then they die by it. I am happy with that!
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I had always been led to believe that plod are trained to shoot at the body under all circumstances. Anyone out there suitably qualified to confirm or deny?
I had pondered.. OK random searches on the tube. What does a copper do on discovering and individual wearing an IED, presuambly with a hand held trigger. Lose, lose situation. Now I see the only realistic tactic that may be employed.
Just hope that pick pockets, dodgy street traders and the like have the comon sense to stand still and do as they're told when challenged.
I had pondered.. OK random searches on the tube. What does a copper do on discovering and individual wearing an IED, presuambly with a hand held trigger. Lose, lose situation. Now I see the only realistic tactic that may be employed.
Just hope that pick pockets, dodgy street traders and the like have the comon sense to stand still and do as they're told when challenged.
RTR - absolutely. To hell with the huggy-fluffy wet-pants attitudes of some; if the bug.ger didn't stop when lawfully ordered and the officers thought that they had genuine reason to suspect that their lives and those of many others were at risk, then just waste the ba$tard......
One down.....
One down.....
Maple,
I'd understood that he was shoved to the ground and was on the floor (terrified, "like a scared rabbit") when shot, and not running away and thereby making himself a target. Don't get me wrong. If they thought he had a bomb I entirely commend the decision to shoot him, but if so, I'm scared crapless that they thought it a good plan to fire five rounds into his bulky coat/bomb belt rather than his head, if the latter option was available, as it seemed to be.
Random thought
Do the police have good enough training for this? The police firearms people seem to have a bit of a habit of shooting harmless nutters with replica guns or table legs in Tesco bags, and of being less than 'surgical' when killing in a way that the SAS do not. With this in mind, would it not be better to be aiming to use the professionals for these kind of ops rather than the SO19 wannabes? They do a difficult job fairly well, but this is serious, and no matter how short they crop their hair, and no matter how far they get away from the pointy hat traditional constable's uniform, and no matter that they wear black overalls with military style boots they are policemen and not the SAS, and given the choice I'd have more confidence in the armed forces than I do in the police.
Hmmm.
Marker and Canary Boys,
So it's OK to jump in and validate the police's actions, and to judge the force appropriate before all the facts are known, and to issue willy nilly congratulations for taking out another bad guy (he must have been bad, he had a brown face) but it's not OK to question those actions, or whether there has been excessive force? Surely we should all wait for the facts before judging the actions of the police, even if, like me, you can't help but smile to yourself while being pretty sure that this was a 'result', however messily it might have been achieved?
To paraphrase:
"V disappointing that the 'Enoch had it right'/'Tony Martin's a hero'/'send 'em home' loonies are already speculating about the ROE - intimating that the 5 rounds fired were an entirely proportionate response. Why can't they resist the right wing nutter urge and wait until any salient facts are released?"
Well done to whoever it was that did what was required. Even if it was shooting a shoplifter, fare-dodger or illegal immigrant........
I'd understood that he was shoved to the ground and was on the floor (terrified, "like a scared rabbit") when shot, and not running away and thereby making himself a target. Don't get me wrong. If they thought he had a bomb I entirely commend the decision to shoot him, but if so, I'm scared crapless that they thought it a good plan to fire five rounds into his bulky coat/bomb belt rather than his head, if the latter option was available, as it seemed to be.
Random thought
Do the police have good enough training for this? The police firearms people seem to have a bit of a habit of shooting harmless nutters with replica guns or table legs in Tesco bags, and of being less than 'surgical' when killing in a way that the SAS do not. With this in mind, would it not be better to be aiming to use the professionals for these kind of ops rather than the SO19 wannabes? They do a difficult job fairly well, but this is serious, and no matter how short they crop their hair, and no matter how far they get away from the pointy hat traditional constable's uniform, and no matter that they wear black overalls with military style boots they are policemen and not the SAS, and given the choice I'd have more confidence in the armed forces than I do in the police.
Hmmm.
Marker and Canary Boys,
So it's OK to jump in and validate the police's actions, and to judge the force appropriate before all the facts are known, and to issue willy nilly congratulations for taking out another bad guy (he must have been bad, he had a brown face) but it's not OK to question those actions, or whether there has been excessive force? Surely we should all wait for the facts before judging the actions of the police, even if, like me, you can't help but smile to yourself while being pretty sure that this was a 'result', however messily it might have been achieved?
To paraphrase:
"V disappointing that the 'Enoch had it right'/'Tony Martin's a hero'/'send 'em home' loonies are already speculating about the ROE - intimating that the 5 rounds fired were an entirely proportionate response. Why can't they resist the right wing nutter urge and wait until any salient facts are released?"
Well done to whoever it was that did what was required. Even if it was shooting a shoplifter, fare-dodger or illegal immigrant........
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Oh yeah well done!! Not connected at all with yesterdays bombings
Does not mean not connected. The nice officers would not have had this person under surveillance all morning if he hadn't been suspected of something.....
genuine reason to suspect that their lives and those of many others were at risk, then just waste the ba$tard......
Fight terrorism with retribution of a public nature.
Now install sniffing devices in every entrance to every form of public transport.... just like airports already have.... who cares if it takes 20 more seconds to get on your train, but how the h*ll do you do it at bus stops?
We will come to accept it eventually.
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Jacko
Much as I hate the b@st@#ds when they are pointing a laser gun at me on the A1 and much as I respect many of your aviation related opinions, I think your random thought is out of order.
The police firearms units are trained to do their job. They are the experts in this case and you are not.
They're not wannabes, they are the professionals. (though I imagine not Bodey and Doyle)
Much as I hate the b@st@#ds when they are pointing a laser gun at me on the A1 and much as I respect many of your aviation related opinions, I think your random thought is out of order.
The police firearms units are trained to do their job. They are the experts in this case and you are not.
They're not wannabes, they are the professionals. (though I imagine not Bodey and Doyle)
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5 rounds fired were an entirely proportionate response
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The Indy was briefed on this last week:
Anti-terror police will useshoot-to-kill policy
By Nigel Morris, Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 14 July 2005
The face of British policing has been changed forever by the revelation that suicide bombers have struck for the first time in this country.
For several years police chiefs had been preparing for the day that fanatics prepared to take their own lives commit an outrage on British streets. Police had visited Israel and Sri Lanka, which have suffered many suicide attacks, and had sent out guidance to officers on how to tackle a suspected bomber. But last week's atrocities in central London have turned a theoretical exercise into one with a chilling relevance to everyday policing.
Armed officers responding to alerts will follow a "shoot-to-kill" policy, while further security precautions will be taken in buildings regarded as prime targets. It is also understood that fresh advice has been circulated to chief constables in the wake of last Thursday's atrocities, who in turn have passed the information to front-line officers.
British planning for a suicide bombing predates 11 September, but was given fresh impetus by those attacks on New York and Washington in 2001. After leading a police delegation to Israel and Sri Lanka, Barbara Wilding, then a deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, produced a confidential report in 2003 on how to tackle the threat in Britain.
Its general advice for officers was not to challenge suspected bombers, but to alert anti-terrorist officers immediately. If the terrorist appears to be about to blow himself up, officers are told to move passers-by discreetly away from him.
<b>Armed police officers arriving on the scene will be operating a shoot-to-kill policy, aiming for the terrorist's head. They will not shoot at the chest, as is the practice in Britain, for fear that would detonate explosives strapped around the bomber.<b/>
Police are testing mobile or hand-held scanners that can detect hidden weapons or bombs packed with nails and bolts. Work is also under way on how bomb-sniffer dogs can be deployed in the fight against suicide bombers.
The National Suicide Terrorist working group, comprising senior officers, regularly updates its advice to chief constables. A police source said: "It is ongoing work. Many of its projects are under constant review."
One effect of the attacks is that public buildings will have to adapt their security checks. Metal detector machines are likely to be moved outside buildings to minimise the carnage if a bomb is detonated and the number of entrances minimised.
But Ms Wilding has confessed that the potential targets are numerous and diverse, including large sports stadiums and shopping centres. That leaves police with having to rely on intelligence work as they try to track down home-grown suicide bombers.
Many are likely to be only very loosely affiliated to terrorists and to be living outwardly respectable, conventional lives.
------------------------------------
It was classified, but I 've just seen ITN refer to it on the 1830 news by its police Op codeword, so guess it will come out more into the open now. Hell of a call for the police officer - I hope his superiors have the bottle to defend the implementation of their policy.
Anti-terror police will useshoot-to-kill policy
By Nigel Morris, Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 14 July 2005
The face of British policing has been changed forever by the revelation that suicide bombers have struck for the first time in this country.
For several years police chiefs had been preparing for the day that fanatics prepared to take their own lives commit an outrage on British streets. Police had visited Israel and Sri Lanka, which have suffered many suicide attacks, and had sent out guidance to officers on how to tackle a suspected bomber. But last week's atrocities in central London have turned a theoretical exercise into one with a chilling relevance to everyday policing.
Armed officers responding to alerts will follow a "shoot-to-kill" policy, while further security precautions will be taken in buildings regarded as prime targets. It is also understood that fresh advice has been circulated to chief constables in the wake of last Thursday's atrocities, who in turn have passed the information to front-line officers.
British planning for a suicide bombing predates 11 September, but was given fresh impetus by those attacks on New York and Washington in 2001. After leading a police delegation to Israel and Sri Lanka, Barbara Wilding, then a deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, produced a confidential report in 2003 on how to tackle the threat in Britain.
Its general advice for officers was not to challenge suspected bombers, but to alert anti-terrorist officers immediately. If the terrorist appears to be about to blow himself up, officers are told to move passers-by discreetly away from him.
<b>Armed police officers arriving on the scene will be operating a shoot-to-kill policy, aiming for the terrorist's head. They will not shoot at the chest, as is the practice in Britain, for fear that would detonate explosives strapped around the bomber.<b/>
Police are testing mobile or hand-held scanners that can detect hidden weapons or bombs packed with nails and bolts. Work is also under way on how bomb-sniffer dogs can be deployed in the fight against suicide bombers.
The National Suicide Terrorist working group, comprising senior officers, regularly updates its advice to chief constables. A police source said: "It is ongoing work. Many of its projects are under constant review."
One effect of the attacks is that public buildings will have to adapt their security checks. Metal detector machines are likely to be moved outside buildings to minimise the carnage if a bomb is detonated and the number of entrances minimised.
But Ms Wilding has confessed that the potential targets are numerous and diverse, including large sports stadiums and shopping centres. That leaves police with having to rely on intelligence work as they try to track down home-grown suicide bombers.
Many are likely to be only very loosely affiliated to terrorists and to be living outwardly respectable, conventional lives.
------------------------------------
It was classified, but I 've just seen ITN refer to it on the 1830 news by its police Op codeword, so guess it will come out more into the open now. Hell of a call for the police officer - I hope his superiors have the bottle to defend the implementation of their policy.
Armed police officers arriving on the scene will be operating a shoot-to-kill policy, aiming for the terrorist's head. They will not shoot at the chest, as is the practice in Britain, for fear that would detonate explosives strapped around the bomber.
Do they know something we do not?
Do they know something we do not?
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Speed
From what I have seen so far the victim is not connected in any way with yesterdays incidents and was unarmed. That has come from Police sources.
Funny how we never had such responses during the IRA years!! Shoot to kill policies were never allowed! Now we have armed Police able to shoot any one under the new rules of engagement, marvellous comrades!!
From what I have seen so far the victim is not connected in any way with yesterdays incidents and was unarmed. That has come from Police sources.
Funny how we never had such responses during the IRA years!! Shoot to kill policies were never allowed! Now we have armed Police able to shoot any one under the new rules of engagement, marvellous comrades!!
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Well, what would you do - guy you think is a potential suidice bomber, fails to stop when challenged, runs away into a crowded tube carriage (where 6 people have in the last 2 weeks attempted/managed to detonate devices) and you have at best a few seconds to make a decision? And the guidance/policy is to shoot him in the head if you believe he is a bomber?
Like I said a heck of a call for anyone to make; even if the guy turns out to not be carrying anything, I would not like to second guess the three cops in the situation. Though I agree, police officers tackling and shooting a suspect whilst he is on the ground is grisly and disturbing.
Could a QRA pilot find himself in a similar (though even worse) position someday?
Like I said a heck of a call for anyone to make; even if the guy turns out to not be carrying anything, I would not like to second guess the three cops in the situation. Though I agree, police officers tackling and shooting a suspect whilst he is on the ground is grisly and disturbing.
Could a QRA pilot find himself in a similar (though even worse) position someday?
PPatRoN
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Could a QRA pilot find himself in a similar (though even worse) position someday?
Thanks for that bit of perspective, trailfinder. Possibly even quite topical, too, given what's just happened in Berlin.
adr
I've no idea whether the UK police MP5s are select-fire or semi-auto only.
Met. Police issue MP5's are semi-auto only.
Met. Police issue Glock 17's are standard mil/commercial issue.
Met. Police issue MP5's are semi-auto only.
Met. Police issue Glock 17's are standard mil/commercial issue.
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Thank God we have Police Officers who are willing to do what is necessary on our behalf.... Thank You guys.
I'd suggest that the MET get as many explosives dogs trained as quickly as possible and position them randomly at the entrances to Tube stations, moving them around on an irregular basis to different stations. That might make the bombers think twice if they think they might get caught before they get on the trains.
It should also be made known that any successful bomber will never have a final resting place, once his/her remains have been identified and isolated, whatever is left will be fed to pigs. Then we'll see how keen they are to die for the cause.
I am worried that now London is becoming a harder target, the murderers will move to other cities in the UK with fewer police resources!
Jim 208
I'd suggest that the MET get as many explosives dogs trained as quickly as possible and position them randomly at the entrances to Tube stations, moving them around on an irregular basis to different stations. That might make the bombers think twice if they think they might get caught before they get on the trains.
It should also be made known that any successful bomber will never have a final resting place, once his/her remains have been identified and isolated, whatever is left will be fed to pigs. Then we'll see how keen they are to die for the cause.
I am worried that now London is becoming a harder target, the murderers will move to other cities in the UK with fewer police resources!
Jim 208