Typhoon Close Call At RIAT
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Is it not time to end the speculation and put this one to bed?
It's getting to the stage that some are scratching around for things to say. Are we not making a teeny-weensy mountain out of a molehill? It happened; he had a close call; he got away with it; he lived to tell another tale; he pro'ly got a grilling from the flying display committee; he pro'ly phoned his boss to tell him what happened; there won't be a board of inquiry [why should there be?]; he goes on flying the Typhoo display.
Any more to be said - or does that summarise it all?
It's getting to the stage that some are scratching around for things to say. Are we not making a teeny-weensy mountain out of a molehill? It happened; he had a close call; he got away with it; he lived to tell another tale; he pro'ly got a grilling from the flying display committee; he pro'ly phoned his boss to tell him what happened; there won't be a board of inquiry [why should there be?]; he goes on flying the Typhoo display.
Any more to be said - or does that summarise it all?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Jackinoko, 543 Victor 2 Wyton in front of the press no less. Pulled too tight just like a Vulcan only thing was the Victor was not as stiff.
Pontius
That was June 1966, so you've got a long memory. I was there, as I was on 543 at the time. Not only was he pulling too hard, but he was doing a lot of knots over the limiting IAS.
I also happened to be at Fairford last Friday and saw the Typhoon incident. (Maybe I should stay away from air displays!) The most impressive thing to me was the rate at which the aeroplane was descending despite the nose being about 15° above the horizon. There was a dead silence after his close shave, then someone said "I don't think he meant to do that". Something of an understatement!
543 Victor 2 Wyton in front of the press no less.
I also happened to be at Fairford last Friday and saw the Typhoon incident. (Maybe I should stay away from air displays!) The most impressive thing to me was the rate at which the aeroplane was descending despite the nose being about 15° above the horizon. There was a dead silence after his close shave, then someone said "I don't think he meant to do that". Something of an understatement!
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Well said FJJP
After 7 pages of largely drivvel some sensible statements.
(PS. I have a pic of him taxiing in on Sunday with a different name on the side of the aircraft (A Sqn Ldr))
Is that common??
P.S. He looks Very young....!
After 7 pages of largely drivvel some sensible statements.
(PS. I have a pic of him taxiing in on Sunday with a different name on the side of the aircraft (A Sqn Ldr))
Is that common??
P.S. He looks Very young....!
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With the help of fellow PPRuNer Duxford Eagles I have put together a small GIF of my photographs of the pass.
All I have done to each image is reduce the size and brighten them a bit.
Its about 800k in size
All I have done to each image is reduce the size and brighten them a bit.
Its about 800k in size
Last edited by Man-on-the-fence; 20th Jul 2005 at 22:13.
Typhoon FCS and Flying Characteristics
Thanks for the montage Nick, I was writing this as you posted.
All right you lot, anyone here done a display in Typhoon??
No? Well pin your ears back because I have.
I have no intention of commenting on what may have led up to the subject incident, I will give you some facts about Typhoon flight controls and flight characteristics as there has been some speculation and questions raised in these regards.
Typhoon has Carefree Handling (CFH), which means that the pilot need not worry about exceeding any structural or aerodynamic limit no matter what he does with the controls (stick, throttles or rudder), no matter what the prevailing flight conditions are or what fuel state or weapons load the aircraft has. However, it does not mean that the pilot can ignore the basic laws of physics and aerodynamics.
The basic airframe configuration is also aerodynamically unstable in pitch, which helps to explain BOAC’s observation that there was “not much alpha on the foreplane”. The control surfaces move to artificially stabilize the aircraft. In a stable aircraft the control surfaces deflect to make the aircraft pitch. In an unstable aircraft the control surfaces are ‘stopping’ the aircraft from pitching. If you look at pictures of the jet in a hard turn, the foreplane is actually leading edge down (ie going against the turn). The flight controls are constantly on the move to keep the apple cart balanced.
The stick does feature an override or detent, but this only produces an effect when the aircraft is in a g-limiting condition (higher speeds) where a percentage of extra g is then allowed. This was the subject of a lot of discussion and heart ache throughout the design life. Some folk insisted on it being there (despite the high fatigue penalty of its inadvertent use) to cater for the high speed dive into the ground (or mid-air collision avoidance) where 9g wasn’t going to hack it, the extra % might just make all the difference. However, this was in the days before GPWS was part of the baseline design. In actual fact the window where 9g would kill you and 9+x%g would save you is very small indeed, but that’s irrelevant to this story because it is highly likely that the aircraft was a speeds where it would be alpha limited not g limited.
The biggest factor that nobody has picked up on is the ability of the aircraft to increase its energy state in a heartbeat. Unload for 3 secs and you add 100kts or so, the faster you are the faster you get faster, with the burners in at low level you can find yourself accelerating despite being at 9g. Not something the current fast jet force are used to!
That should be enough to keep you going and set a few facts straight.
Regards
Tarnished
All right you lot, anyone here done a display in Typhoon??
No? Well pin your ears back because I have.
I have no intention of commenting on what may have led up to the subject incident, I will give you some facts about Typhoon flight controls and flight characteristics as there has been some speculation and questions raised in these regards.
Typhoon has Carefree Handling (CFH), which means that the pilot need not worry about exceeding any structural or aerodynamic limit no matter what he does with the controls (stick, throttles or rudder), no matter what the prevailing flight conditions are or what fuel state or weapons load the aircraft has. However, it does not mean that the pilot can ignore the basic laws of physics and aerodynamics.
The basic airframe configuration is also aerodynamically unstable in pitch, which helps to explain BOAC’s observation that there was “not much alpha on the foreplane”. The control surfaces move to artificially stabilize the aircraft. In a stable aircraft the control surfaces deflect to make the aircraft pitch. In an unstable aircraft the control surfaces are ‘stopping’ the aircraft from pitching. If you look at pictures of the jet in a hard turn, the foreplane is actually leading edge down (ie going against the turn). The flight controls are constantly on the move to keep the apple cart balanced.
The stick does feature an override or detent, but this only produces an effect when the aircraft is in a g-limiting condition (higher speeds) where a percentage of extra g is then allowed. This was the subject of a lot of discussion and heart ache throughout the design life. Some folk insisted on it being there (despite the high fatigue penalty of its inadvertent use) to cater for the high speed dive into the ground (or mid-air collision avoidance) where 9g wasn’t going to hack it, the extra % might just make all the difference. However, this was in the days before GPWS was part of the baseline design. In actual fact the window where 9g would kill you and 9+x%g would save you is very small indeed, but that’s irrelevant to this story because it is highly likely that the aircraft was a speeds where it would be alpha limited not g limited.
The biggest factor that nobody has picked up on is the ability of the aircraft to increase its energy state in a heartbeat. Unload for 3 secs and you add 100kts or so, the faster you are the faster you get faster, with the burners in at low level you can find yourself accelerating despite being at 9g. Not something the current fast jet force are used to!
That should be enough to keep you going and set a few facts straight.
Regards
Tarnished
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The biggest factor that nobody has picked up on is the ability of the aircraft to increase its energy state in a heartbeat. Unload for 3 secs and you add 100kts or so, the faster you are the faster you get faster, with the burners in at low level you can find yourself accelerating despite being at 9g. Not something the current fast jet force are used to!
Glad he's here to hear us talk about the almost incident.
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OK.
I was there. Saw it. Started running to begin the Crash Ob. Learnt two things about Typhoons on Friday afternoon. It can get you into trouble. It can get you out.
New SOP for Typh air combat; get 'em down low and see who buys the farm first. I know where I would put my money. It is very possible that the only aircraft that could have got you out of that situaton was the only one in the sky over Fairford.
Mr E, I salute you.
I was there. Saw it. Started running to begin the Crash Ob. Learnt two things about Typhoons on Friday afternoon. It can get you into trouble. It can get you out.
New SOP for Typh air combat; get 'em down low and see who buys the farm first. I know where I would put my money. It is very possible that the only aircraft that could have got you out of that situaton was the only one in the sky over Fairford.
Mr E, I salute you.
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Controversial Tim,
Who said that the current display pilot is here to listen to us talking? You are quoting Tarnished, who said he HAS displayed Typhoon, not that he is the current display pilot.
Yes, the fact that it accelerates VERY quickly even with the stick loaded will be something that the current Typhoon display pilot is completely used to. However you and I don't know the hard facts, merely the speculation, and the very fact that you insinuate that he was caught unawares by his aircraft accelerating, during a display he wil have practised countless times, is an insult.
Who said that the current display pilot is here to listen to us talking? You are quoting Tarnished, who said he HAS displayed Typhoon, not that he is the current display pilot.
Yes, the fact that it accelerates VERY quickly even with the stick loaded will be something that the current Typhoon display pilot is completely used to. However you and I don't know the hard facts, merely the speculation, and the very fact that you insinuate that he was caught unawares by his aircraft accelerating, during a display he wil have practised countless times, is an insult.
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FJJP
That pretty much sums it up. I had a private beer with Matt ( whom I'd never met before) after he'd re-qualified on Friday evening. He clearly had the support of all those about him - groundcrew, squadron pilots, other team members, and the hierarchy. Pretty hard situation for the man, but he then went on to do his stuff superbly on Sat & Sun, under the spotlight of all the professionals who 'knew' what had happened. Gutsy.
But from an entirely dispassionte view, and with a distant display-ish background, I'm somewhat amazed that the red card wasn't shown for the Saturday & Sunday. I recall the F-18 guy that did a similar thing over Farnborough town in 96 (?), and was blackballed for the rest of the week. From a regularity view, strange.
As for bollockings, BoI etc, leave it!
That pretty much sums it up. I had a private beer with Matt ( whom I'd never met before) after he'd re-qualified on Friday evening. He clearly had the support of all those about him - groundcrew, squadron pilots, other team members, and the hierarchy. Pretty hard situation for the man, but he then went on to do his stuff superbly on Sat & Sun, under the spotlight of all the professionals who 'knew' what had happened. Gutsy.
But from an entirely dispassionte view, and with a distant display-ish background, I'm somewhat amazed that the red card wasn't shown for the Saturday & Sunday. I recall the F-18 guy that did a similar thing over Farnborough town in 96 (?), and was blackballed for the rest of the week. From a regularity view, strange.
As for bollockings, BoI etc, leave it!
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I recall the F-18 guy that did a similar thing over Farnborough town in 96 (?), and was blackballed for the rest of the week. From a regularity view, strange.
Maybe they figured the jet we have all paid for over the years (wayyyyyy over budget as is usual for British Waste of Space) should start to earn its keep at last ??
From a pilot point of view, the guy did fantastic to recover from the situation. He saved an expensive jet ... and more imortantly ... his butt. But from a standards point of view (of which he is RAF expert), why did it get to that stage before he tried to recover ??
Hopefully he will feed the answers to Typhoon pilots and we won't see them spoil UK airshows with any needless crashes.
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No matter what you say about the aircraft and its abilities.....at the end of the day it wasn't the aircraft that broke the limits, it wasn't the aircraft which disobeyed the rules and it won't be the aircraft that stands in front of a Courts martial.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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which helps to explain BOAC’s observation that there was “not much alpha on the foreplane
I fully expected the foreplane to be hard 'nose up' with ME's feet up on the dash
Must be an interesting aircraft if the stability system fails?
"Hopefully he will feed the answers to Typhoon pilots and we won't see them spoil UK airshows with any needless crashes."
I always thought the purpose of a BOI was neither to apportion blame, nor to punish individuals, but to determine the facts that may have a bearing on an incident/accident; and then to make recommendations to Command in order to help prevent recurrence. Asking the pilot what happened should glean most of the answers, and Command is fortunate that we are able to do that on this occasion. When the next guy/gal reaches the same link in the chain, but reacts slightly differently and ploughs in, the subsequent BOI may not have the luxury of a one-to-one interview.
So, in that context, I believe those who put 'BOI', 'Bollockings' and 'leave it', in the same sentence should think again.
I always thought the purpose of a BOI was neither to apportion blame, nor to punish individuals, but to determine the facts that may have a bearing on an incident/accident; and then to make recommendations to Command in order to help prevent recurrence. Asking the pilot what happened should glean most of the answers, and Command is fortunate that we are able to do that on this occasion. When the next guy/gal reaches the same link in the chain, but reacts slightly differently and ploughs in, the subsequent BOI may not have the luxury of a one-to-one interview.
So, in that context, I believe those who put 'BOI', 'Bollockings' and 'leave it', in the same sentence should think again.
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I always thought the purpose of a BOI was neither to apportion blame, nor to punish individuals, but to determine the facts
No, No, No..... the purpose of a BOI is to form a witch hunt, track the guilty B' Arstard down and to hang him(her) out to dry.