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Typhoon Close Call At RIAT

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Typhoon Close Call At RIAT

Old 19th Jul 2005, 05:48
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And its Dutch not AAC (oh and its Dutch AIR FORCE!! - not that I'm stirring you understand )
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 08:03
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Wow, the power of Pprune. Page 2 in the Tory graph today!
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 08:22
  #83 (permalink)  
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Buoy 15, agree about the Nimrod and also about the Victor 2. The Abingdon F4 also perhaps.

Typhoon? Well who knows?
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 08:34
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Which Victor 2 did you have in mind, old boy?
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 08:47
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I wonder how this incident may affect future displays.
First politically; there are likely to be (or should be) questions asked like what if 35 ft lower? (it is interesting how this value crops up in many display accidents). The fact is that in the current political climate Jo Public would not like paying for a military ‘error’ that parked one of their new jets at the side of the runway. What would £xxM pay for elsewhere; and ‘Tiffys’ do not catch terrorists. All of this has to be set against the backdrop of increasing public power, and the need for blame and retribution.

Secondly what can be learnt from the incident? I doubt that any findings will be made public, but I hope that whatever happened is passed on internally. I recall many years ago an excellent article (Air Clues?) on display flying; even for those who were not in this category there was something to heed about judgment and human error in precision flying. I expect that the pilot debriefed with flying display committee (a similar organization to that used at Farnborough) where explanations and advice would be exchanged for mutual benefit; at Farnborough the world tp community is close enough to talk and learn from each other, I hope the military can similarly benefit from any lessons learnt.

A speculative diversion; does the Typhoon’s control philosophy - control about the velocity vector as opposed the longitudinal axis, change the perception of display maneuvers? At high alpha there is a significant difference between where the aircraft is pointing and where it is going; when the VV is vertically down could there be a perception of well-being as the pitch attitude indicates less than 90? Whilst in principle this is true for all aircraft, would the Typhoon’s motion cues in having a different frame of reference give alternative or incorrect awareness of relative motion?

I hope that their ‘Airships’ do not overreact; most have a good track record in balancing the risks of display flying against the benefits. But these people too suffer political pressure, and the need for action is often predetermined. From my fast jet experience I knew several professional display pilots, two close friends, were killed. The majority of display accidents involve human error and extreme vertical maneuvers. Is there now good justification in restricting low level vertical maneuvers, particularly those not directly applicable the current role of the aircraft? Is it sensible to expose a new aircraft type to the increased risks of display flying; albeit small risks, but all with minimum margin for human error? Fortunately I do not have to make these calls, but during my career the advice I attribute to Hugh Meriwether (Hawker tp) aided my judgment – “speed and upwardness”.

Edit: My apologies to Duncan and Hugh, following JF’s comment; and not forgetting the many examples of professional of display flying from Bill, David, John (JF), et al. A bit before my time, but I watched from the grass at F’Boro.

Last edited by safetypee; 19th Jul 2005 at 10:57.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 08:53
  #86 (permalink)  

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Has a Board of Inquiry been called for? If so, we should desist from speculation.

The other examples quoted WERE investigated as they resulted in aircraft accidents. Thankfully, this one didn't. Common sense says that it could be dealt with by careful debriefing.

Or are there really some sad souls out there who would like to see disciplinary action to be taken?
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 09:33
  #87 (permalink)  

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Safetypee

Duncan Meriwether (Hawker tp)
I am sure both Duncan Simpson and Hugh Merewether are happy to have helped you.

JF
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 09:58
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The pilot of a Eurofighter Typhoon jet narrowly avoided crashing his aircraft during rehearsals for an air show at the weekend.



A Ministry Defence spokesman said the pilot of the RAF's most expensive plane had "got too close to the ground".

Witnesses reported that the pilot "slammed on his burners" to prevent the aircraft hitting the ground on Friday during a practice for the show at RAF Fairford, Glos.

Jeremy Flack, an aircraft enthusiast, said: "It just didn't look right to me. He was getting closer to the ground and everyone gasped.

''Many of us got pictures of it happening. A still photo does not do it justice because it looks like it is just taking off. But there's no landing gear down and you can see the heat below the plane from the burners as the pilot desperately tries to save himself from smashing into the ground."

Asked about a report that the plane had been a "split second from disaster", the MoD spokesman said: "I don't know about that. The pilot was in control of his aircraft. He got too close to the ground. He corrected the mistake."

The spokesman said the pilot was one of the most experienced of those flying the Eurofighter.

He could not say whether the pilot had been reprimanded.

He said: "It is an internal matter between the pilot, his ground crew and his commanding officers to establish what went wrong."
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 10:41
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Sorry if this has already been stated but everyone on this thread is going on and on about 'what if s' and '35ft lower' etc etc. The minimum limits for displaying (100' agl) have a built in safety margin for error. Obviously the aim is not to bust these limits but it happens. Can anyone who flies military ac at low level honestly say they have never had the rad-alt warner go off?? If you have then you too have bust a limit. But thats why the limits are there to allow for a margin of error - otherwise the published limits would be 0ft!! Cut the guy some slack - he (may or may not have) made an error that put the ac close to the ground - at the speed he was descending it may only have been a fraction of an inch of stick pull - but most importantly (especially for him and his family) he didn't pile in. End of story.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 11:04
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There are a few references above to "busting his MSD of 100'agl". Now in my day doing low level aeros in the RAF, in something as mundane as a JP (but applied to all jets at least), the 100' MSD only applied to "flypasts"... in turn effectively the intial run in to the display, and/or a flypast descending from essentially level flight.

For aerobatic manoeuvres, the MSD was 500' i.e. where judgement / luck / skill was used to make a "hard(ish) pull" to level flight.

Can anyone confirm that is is still the case? I cannot believe that FJs are now displaying to 100' MSD from genuine aerobatic manoeuvres?

The above is not related to the RIAT incident. However, if the above is confirmed, then it seems the RIAT incident maybe did not make 100' into 25', but 500' ?
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 11:37
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Do you call being announced over the tannoy at RIAT as being in the public domain?
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 11:48
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Wearing a bit thin now.

Talk of replacement/substitute jets after the event is nonsense. The same pilot in same jet flew again (outstandingly) just hours later - that's four flights one the same day and two more on subsequent days -says a lot about platform reliability - any F3s/F-16s capable of that?

Every stakeholder from flyers to spectators would wish to avoid similar situations ever occuring again. However it is likely that they will at some time in the future because sh1t happens.

At the end of the day, as a tax payer it is comforting to know that, in Typhoon, the RAF has a jet with the systems, agility and power to deal with such a scenario - and pilots with the balls to ride it through.

bb
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 11:51
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If it was the 2005 season display pilot featured on the RAF part of the MoD website, then it's Sqn Ldr Matt Elliot. He's also the OC Standards for 29 Squadron.

RAF Typhoon Display Pilot
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 11:58
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Most of us know exactly who the pilot was. Anyone listening to the commentary at Fairford knows. Anyone interested can find out easily by Googling 'Typhoon display pilot 2005'.

It is, in other words, far into the public domain already.

From the RAF's OWN website:

The first RAF Typhoon air display.

by Tim Callaway, pictures by Keith Draycott.

The first public air display by an RAF Squadron Typhoon took place at the 2005 Southend Air Show. Making history in the new front line fighter was Squadron Leader Matt E****** of No 29 Squadron, the Typhoon Operational Conversion Unit (OCU).

Matt E****** began operational flying in the RAF on the Tornado F3. After two tours on the type, he became a Weapons Instructor on No 43 Squadron. His next posting was to the Typhoon Operational Evaluation Unit, No 17 Squadron, where he experienced two years of testing and evaluating the Typhoon. Matt was then promoted and posted to No 29 Squadron, the Typhoon OCU, where he is now Officer Commanding Standards.

As OC Standards, Matt will be responsible for the standardisation of the pilot training for the whole of the Typhoon Force. As this is currently a nucleus force, Matt is working alongside the OCU to get the training syllabus up and running. Once the first front-line Squadron passes through the OCU, Matt will go with them to assist with their combat-ready work-up. In effect, No 29 Squadron are writing the book on the Typhoon, and Matt will be responsible for implementing it across the force. At the moment, the OCU are in the writing stage, preparing and evaluating the syllabus for the students, while their counterparts, No 17 Squadron, the Typhoon Operational Evaluation Unit, are doing similar work to ensure the aircraft is ready to fulfil the task.

In the midst of this tremendous responsibility, Matt has also taken on the role of Typhoon display pilot for 2005. Matt is very enthusiastic about this, and explained after his first display at Southend; "Well, that's one down and fifteen venues, or about twenty displays to go! It's been really good fun and a big eye-opener so far, this is the first time I have displayed an aeroplane, let alone the Typhoon! So it has been a steep learning curve not just for me, but for the whole Team."

"The Typhoon is a quantum leap in performance over the Tornado. Typhoon is a lighter aeroplane with much more thrust than any other type I have flown, and the manoeuvrability is simply awesome. It is not only a delight to fly as a result, but much easier as the flight control system does it all for you. I can pull the stick all the way back into my stomach, put the throttles all the way forward and the aircraft will fly the manoeuvre for me. In other types, you have to worry about such things as limiting speeds, flap settings, permissible manoeuvres and where you put your wings. In the Typhoon, it is all straightforward and simple instead, and literally at your fingertips."

"It is a very comfortable aircraft to fly as well, because of the sheer performance. You can always get out of whatever you have got into! Most of the display is flown between 4 to 5G, but towards the end I have a high-speed pass with a pull-up, which is about 8.5G. The kit we are wearing at the moment is fantastic at protecting you against those forces, so I don't even have to strain against the G, the kit does the work and I can relax and concentrate on flying the aircraft, which is great."

"I am thoroughly enjoying myself at the moment, but as a relative new boy to display flying, I realise I still have a lot to more learn. If I am honest, being the first is pretty daunting, but I must admit it is great fun."

Matt's display in the Typhoon really does show off the power and the manoeuvrability of the type. He was given a clean sheet by the RAF to design his display, and spent a great deal of time researching it. "John Turner, the former chief test pilot and display pilot on the programme, and Craig Penrice, a BAE SYSTEM test pilot who also displayed the Typhoon have both given me a lot of background, which is great. I also am very lucky in having Flt Lt Anthony Parkinson working with me as my display manager. Tony has been the Tornado F3 display pilot, and has flown with the Red Arrows for four years, so has a mass of display experience. Between us, we designed the display together."

"You must remember that with Typhoon, I am just the sharp end of a very large team. Because this is a very new aeroplane, with a lot of new in-service techniques and equipment required to support it, the engineering backup required is immense, and has been supreme. We have a team of at least ten engineers every time we go away to make sure we are safe to operate. Behind them we have the whole Squadron supporting us. There are guys back our home base at Coningsby making sure the data is up to date, as well as guys still based at Warton making sure the Engineering Support System is up and running. There is a very big team behind us, not just the ten of us out at the air show. This really is an in-service aeroplane out here for the first time."

Supporting the Typhoon Team on their first outing to a public display was Wing Commander Al Mackay, the OC of No 29 Squadron. Al has been involved in the Typhoon programme for some six years now, and is very well placed to understand the project, the risks and the needs of the aircraft as a result. He expanded on Matt's comments about the task of No 29 Squadron by adding; "Our role is to train the rest of the Typhoon Force, right now by learning all we can about the aircraft and its requirements and to develop such an understanding that we can then impart that knowledge on to every Typhoon pilot in the RAF."

"On a personal note, I am really pleased that No 29 Squadron is the unit allotted to this task, as I was a member of the Squadron when it was flying the Tornado F3, so it is nice to come back, particularly as boss!"

"However, this is a massive task, hugely important, because if we don't do our job properly, the Typhoon programme, so far as the RAF is concerned, will stall. In terms of the Team that I have around me, everyone has been hand picked to do the job they are doing. Whether it be pilots who have an F-16 or F-18 background, Weapons Instructors from the Air Defence Force, or the Engineering team, everyone was carefully selected for this task. There is tremendous expertise here, and as I try to tell everyone on the Squadron, if we can't do it, nobody can."

"The aircraft itself is really helping in this. Yes, it is being developed in service, and there is a great deal of work left to do as such elements as the Multi-Function Information Distribution System (MIDS), Sensor Fusion and Defensive Aids Sub-System (DASS) are now being introduced. All this work is still going on, and there will be many software drops and upgrades to the aircraft before it is fully operational, but the aircraft we have right now is already outstanding. In terms of the radar, the avionics package and the airframe itself, in terms of performance, it is second to none and we are delighted with it. It is this confidence and performance that we are demonstrating in the flying display."

Squadron Leader Steph Simpson, the Senior Engineering Officer of No 29 Squadron, echoed both Matt and Al when she said; "I have been involved with the Typhoon in an engineering and planning role for several years, I was part of the Abbeywood Project Team, but since arriving on No 29 Squadron, I must say I feel I now have the best job in the Royal Air Force for an engineer. This is a real challenge!"

Several members of Steph's engineering support team for the display aircraft wholeheartedly agreed. The Typhoon is seen as the cutting edge of technology, and managing the introduction of this technology into Squadron service with the RAF is rightly a matter of great pride to everyone involved in it.

Having flown what many expert spectators considered to be an incredible display in the Typhoon, Matt E****** summed up the latest RAF fighter by saying; "The Typhoon is so thoroughly exhilarating and such a quantum leap ahead of anything else, that anybody who is out there, and is a self-respecting fighter pilot, should get himself onto this jet!"



The same pilot is also identified by name on a number of other websites, including Valley's and the Government News Network, and in the RAF News, etc.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 12:08
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As regards all the talk of b*llockings, reprimands and one way chat's with the AOC, IMHO there is probably no stiffer reprimand than the one Matt gave himself.

Everything else is about learning lessons, not punishment.

s/w
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 12:22
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Crikey!


he looks a bit young to be flying something that big!!!




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Old 19th Jul 2005, 12:22
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Quote from ME:

" I can pull the stick all the way back into my stomach, put the throttles all the way forward and the aircraft will fly the manoeuvre for me."

Evidently!!
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 12:32
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LC re busting limits: If the authorizers view a limit as a rule that is never broken (which I hope they don’t) then busting a limit is a blameworthy transgression; unfortunately this is often the public view.
Alternatively if the limits are interpreted as personal protection (crew and authorizers) and should be used for guidance, an acceptance that errors occur and thus the limits in part quantifies the likely error, then this is a much more professional approach (risk management). Busting a limit in this sense does not warrant any blame, it is the understanding and correction of the error that are important.

Busting the limits per se should not require a BoE, but often it is the circumstances and nature of the bust which leads to such over reaction. It is not the open discussion, emotive or otherwise, which benefits other crews that determines the action required.
In this instance the incident was very public and a close call; I do not believe that this alone warrants a BoE, but like any incident it should be investigated. If a personal debrief (investigation) is sufficient then the matter is closed, but please share what has been learnt (within the military).

The authorizers may have something to learn from the incident, did they overlook a small difference in aircraft behavior or make false assumption about it’s capability against previous ones?

NoD raises a valid point about display minima. I do not know what the RIAT limits were, but a similar responsible airshows, the fast jet minima was 250/300ft for horizontal maneuvers and 500ft for vertical. Many pilots and authorizes assume that such minima can be applied equally to all fast jet types; this is no necessarily true and this is where the professional display pilot knowing both his personal limits and those of the aircraft will make the necessary adjustments.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 13:39
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he looks a bit young to be flying something that big!!!
...more surprising is that it is "that big" looks quite small until you see people next to it... or are the people all stunted from 8.5G manouevres?
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 14:45
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Another most apposite quote from ME:
'You can always get out of whatever you have got into!'

However he got into it, he can thank his lucky stars that he didn't have a pair of military Speys behind him with their 3 second burner light up time...........!!!
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