Our Brave Boys? Or Murdering Thugs?
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Our Brave Boys? Or Murdering Thugs?
I am frankly appalled by this report in the Sunday Times today. If true, those who perpetrated the crime should be shot:
Regimental commander in probe over death of Iraqi detainee
Reorted by Michael Smith
The commander of a British unit that fought in Iraq is among a number of officers under investigation following the death of an Iraqi prisoner. The man died while in the custody of the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment (QLR) in southern Iraq in 2003.
The Ministry of Defence said last night that an investigation into the running of the chain of command of the QLR, then led by Lieutenant- Colonel Jorge Mendonca, had been passed to the Army Prosecuting Authority. The authority will decide if any officers should be charged in connection with the death. It is not clear if Mendonca will face prosecution.
The dead man, Baha Mousa, a 26-year-old hotel employee, was one of nine men arrested by the QLR in a hotel in Basra on September 13, 2003. An International Committee of the Red Cross report said the men were “made to kneel, face and hands against the ground, as if in a prayer position. The soldiers stamped on the back of the neck of those raising their head.
“The suspects were taken to Al-Hakimiya, a former office used by the Mukhabarat (the Iraqi secret police) in Basra and then beaten severely by coalition forces personnel.”
Mousa, who was married with two children, died following this, the report said. “Prior to his death, his co-arrestees heard him screaming and asking for assistance.”
Mousa’s death certificate said the cause of death was “cardio-respiratory arrest-asphyxia”, but it added that an eyewitness description of the body spoke of “broken ribs and skin lesions on the face consistent with beatings”.
At least one member of the QLR has told the Royal Military Police Special Investigation Branch (SIB) that junior officers were aware of ill-treatment of prisoners but unable to do anything about it.
A number of rank and file soldiers involved in the detention of Mousa are expected to be charged with various offences relating to his death.
Sources close to the regiment said Mendonca, who was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for his time in Iraq, had brought the incidents to the notice of the authorities in the first place.
“He has done as much as anyone could,” one said. “He is a very good man and seen as a high-flyer. The minute he heard about the death of the prisoner, he called the SIB.”
Regimental commander in probe over death of Iraqi detainee
Reorted by Michael Smith
The commander of a British unit that fought in Iraq is among a number of officers under investigation following the death of an Iraqi prisoner. The man died while in the custody of the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment (QLR) in southern Iraq in 2003.
The Ministry of Defence said last night that an investigation into the running of the chain of command of the QLR, then led by Lieutenant- Colonel Jorge Mendonca, had been passed to the Army Prosecuting Authority. The authority will decide if any officers should be charged in connection with the death. It is not clear if Mendonca will face prosecution.
The dead man, Baha Mousa, a 26-year-old hotel employee, was one of nine men arrested by the QLR in a hotel in Basra on September 13, 2003. An International Committee of the Red Cross report said the men were “made to kneel, face and hands against the ground, as if in a prayer position. The soldiers stamped on the back of the neck of those raising their head.
“The suspects were taken to Al-Hakimiya, a former office used by the Mukhabarat (the Iraqi secret police) in Basra and then beaten severely by coalition forces personnel.”
Mousa, who was married with two children, died following this, the report said. “Prior to his death, his co-arrestees heard him screaming and asking for assistance.”
Mousa’s death certificate said the cause of death was “cardio-respiratory arrest-asphyxia”, but it added that an eyewitness description of the body spoke of “broken ribs and skin lesions on the face consistent with beatings”.
At least one member of the QLR has told the Royal Military Police Special Investigation Branch (SIB) that junior officers were aware of ill-treatment of prisoners but unable to do anything about it.
A number of rank and file soldiers involved in the detention of Mousa are expected to be charged with various offences relating to his death.
Sources close to the regiment said Mendonca, who was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for his time in Iraq, had brought the incidents to the notice of the authorities in the first place.
“He has done as much as anyone could,” one said. “He is a very good man and seen as a high-flyer. The minute he heard about the death of the prisoner, he called the SIB.”
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Forgive me Beagle if I dont shed a tear for the deceased prisoner, for some reason I cant get the image of the beheading videos out of my mind. There is no excuse for what happened to the Iraqi prisoner but what else do the barbarians understand?
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,
Okay, it was a story in a respected paper.
Journalists can be wrong and so can everyone else.
I shall reserve judgement on this, til the facts are released.
However, I do find a certain irony with the fact that a brutal dictator who is known to have killed 1000's (plus) is contemplating sueing ( is that how it's spelt?) a well known tabloid for showing him in his jockeys.
How sad has the law become??????
Okay, it was a story in a respected paper.
Journalists can be wrong and so can everyone else.
I shall reserve judgement on this, til the facts are released.
However, I do find a certain irony with the fact that a brutal dictator who is known to have killed 1000's (plus) is contemplating sueing ( is that how it's spelt?) a well known tabloid for showing him in his jockeys.
How sad has the law become??????
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Forgive me Beagle if I dont shed a tear for the deceased prisoner, for some reason I cant get the image of the beheading videos out of my mind. There is no excuse for what happened to the Iraqi prisoner but what else do the barbarians understand?
Forgive me Effortless if I dont shed a tear for the deceased prisoner, for some reason I cant get the image of the tortured prisoners out of my mind. There is no excuse for what happened but what else do the barbarians understand?
Thread Starter
Humiliation of prisoners (even that worthless piece of $hit Saddam) and torture of captives are levels to which the UK's Armed Forces should never sink.
At least, that's what I always believed.
At least, that's what I always believed.
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I think most of us on this forum know of the levels to which the UK's Armed Forces (for that read ARMY!) sank to after capturing Basrah Airfield. How the press didn't pick up on it and heads didn't roll I will never understand.
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Ah the beauty of conflict where certain people decide to be judge jury and executioner and are given the opportunity to act out inner desires.
It will be written and talked about for years to come, people will discuss endlessly why it is allowed to happens but the true outcome will be no change
It will be written and talked about for years to come, people will discuss endlessly why it is allowed to happens but the true outcome will be no change
I think most of us on this forum know of the levels to which the UK's Armed Forces (for that read ARMY!) sank to after capturing Basrah Airfield. How the press didn't pick up on it and heads didn't roll I will never understand.
Were you there? Were you actually fighting in the takeover of Basrah Airfield, did you see this stuff, or is it handed down info.. If you were'nt there don't be so quick to judge.
If you did see it why haven't you done anything about it.
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Well, the press will know now you d**k. If you had something to say, say it to the correct authorities and dont try and have a trial here. No excuse for treating prisoners badly KennyR, that lowers you to their level.
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Interesting replies so far...
Having survived Gulf War 1 amonst other confrontations over my lengthy service career, its always easy to condemn out of hand any alleged injustices, mistreatment of prisoners or brutality without knowing the real facts
Did anyone watch the movie of TV last night called Rules of Engagement? I know its several years old but it raised some interesting issues.
I remember when I was in Cyprus during the mid 60's and EOKA terrorists were purported to be making attempts to attack military bases, we were issued with a nice ROE card, written in English and Greek. (Can still remember Halt/Stamata) Quite frankly it was a joke, the end result being, dont shoot until the b*ggers are smacking you over the head.
but I digress
I totally abhor any mistreatment of any indivudual but lets face it, many of us have been there when the decision to act has to be made in a split second.
If the story from the Sunday Times is true, then I have no doubt that in this very politically correct world we live in, someone will take the appropriate action.
Interestingly in the same paper today there is an article about the rocket attack on the Herc, that ended in tragedy. Try asking the family and relatives of the aircrew lost how they feel, kinda brings things into focus.
The problem in defence is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without. ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Having survived Gulf War 1 amonst other confrontations over my lengthy service career, its always easy to condemn out of hand any alleged injustices, mistreatment of prisoners or brutality without knowing the real facts
Did anyone watch the movie of TV last night called Rules of Engagement? I know its several years old but it raised some interesting issues.
I remember when I was in Cyprus during the mid 60's and EOKA terrorists were purported to be making attempts to attack military bases, we were issued with a nice ROE card, written in English and Greek. (Can still remember Halt/Stamata) Quite frankly it was a joke, the end result being, dont shoot until the b*ggers are smacking you over the head.
but I digress
I totally abhor any mistreatment of any indivudual but lets face it, many of us have been there when the decision to act has to be made in a split second.
If the story from the Sunday Times is true, then I have no doubt that in this very politically correct world we live in, someone will take the appropriate action.
Interestingly in the same paper today there is an article about the rocket attack on the Herc, that ended in tragedy. Try asking the family and relatives of the aircrew lost how they feel, kinda brings things into focus.
The problem in defence is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without. ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Chutley, maybe when real interrogation is taking place, the 'bad guys' don't refrain as much as the Monkey boys.
At least during an exercise you can tell yourself "they're not really going to cut off my balls".
At least during an exercise you can tell yourself "they're not really going to cut off my balls".
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I think you are confusing two things, sparkie.
There's the snap decision that you have to make "when a big 'airy Russian comes at you, with a gun in one 'and and an 'alf-eaten baby in the other" as a small arms instructor once expressed it to young Darth while at RMAS. That's when the RoE may get a little stretched, and frankly that's probably OK to err on the side of caution and shoot the bugger, unless of course the bugger is driving an Italian journalist.
But once you've captured them, there are certain expectations, and you can't really talk about the "heat of the moment" unless there's an escape attempt or some other mayhem going on. Beating the crap out of helpless prisoners is ineffective as an interrogation technique, and is morally wrong.
It's not a matter of shedding a tear for the poor prisoner. It is a matter of allowing even those we are fighting the appropriate due process. One of the things that is being lost right now with all the Spam-inspired terror-hysteria is the concept of due process, and the inescapable fact that some/maybe many of those incarcerated in these camps may well be moderately innocent.
Especially in conflict in built up areas (or whatever the current jargon is for house-to-house fighting where you're not sure who might be against you), there's a tendency to sweep up everybody and his dog and throw 'em in the pokey. That works quite well, as long as you have some way of processing out the ones who are not of interest. Over here in the US, there is a tacit (and in some cases explicit) assumption that anyone who has been picked up by the forces of might, right and justice is guilty of something. And any suggestion to the contrary is "supporting terrorism" or "disrespecting the troops" or "being anti-American."
But from Magna Carta onward, including such things as habeus corpus and the Hague and Geneva Conventions, the correct and useful treatment and interrogation and (in some cases) release of prisoners has been hammered out. And to step back from that is disgusting. I'd like to think we are better than that.
(noted on preview): So in Interrogation training, how many of you were killed and maimed by your interrogators?
There's the snap decision that you have to make "when a big 'airy Russian comes at you, with a gun in one 'and and an 'alf-eaten baby in the other" as a small arms instructor once expressed it to young Darth while at RMAS. That's when the RoE may get a little stretched, and frankly that's probably OK to err on the side of caution and shoot the bugger, unless of course the bugger is driving an Italian journalist.
But once you've captured them, there are certain expectations, and you can't really talk about the "heat of the moment" unless there's an escape attempt or some other mayhem going on. Beating the crap out of helpless prisoners is ineffective as an interrogation technique, and is morally wrong.
It's not a matter of shedding a tear for the poor prisoner. It is a matter of allowing even those we are fighting the appropriate due process. One of the things that is being lost right now with all the Spam-inspired terror-hysteria is the concept of due process, and the inescapable fact that some/maybe many of those incarcerated in these camps may well be moderately innocent.
Especially in conflict in built up areas (or whatever the current jargon is for house-to-house fighting where you're not sure who might be against you), there's a tendency to sweep up everybody and his dog and throw 'em in the pokey. That works quite well, as long as you have some way of processing out the ones who are not of interest. Over here in the US, there is a tacit (and in some cases explicit) assumption that anyone who has been picked up by the forces of might, right and justice is guilty of something. And any suggestion to the contrary is "supporting terrorism" or "disrespecting the troops" or "being anti-American."
But from Magna Carta onward, including such things as habeus corpus and the Hague and Geneva Conventions, the correct and useful treatment and interrogation and (in some cases) release of prisoners has been hammered out. And to step back from that is disgusting. I'd like to think we are better than that.
(noted on preview): So in Interrogation training, how many of you were killed and maimed by your interrogators?
If the enemy is a signatory of the Geneva Convention, then treat them under those rules, if they are not a signatory, then treat them iaw the 10 commandments - do unto others, before they do you.
Sorry, BEagle is right here. If this is true then it's wrong, no argument, no excuse, no rationalising, it has nothing to do with the Geneva convention, it's just plain wrong.
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it has nothing to do with the Geneva convention, it's just plain wrong.
I do not condone the beating of a defenceless prisoner, but something is not 'wrong' just because YOU say it is, Pr00ne. Can I suggest you stop trying to fight wars from the comfort of your armchair and get out there and see just what the troops have to put up with, before passing judgement in a case you know nothing about?
The terrorists are winning the war, because they do not respect the Geneva Convention or any other form of common decency. There is no 'right' and 'wrong' in war, only winners and losers. We believe (however tentatively) that our cause is generally just, that we are in the right. So do they. They believe that they have the right to slaughter innocent women and children in their 'struggle', simply because they are not muslims, or the wrong type of muslim. So who is right?
The answer is both of us, and none of us, or any combination of the above, depending on your point of view. If we continue to straightjacket ourselves with a 50-year-old set of rules, written long before any concept of trans-national global terrorism existed, we will lose.
As I stated above, I do NOT condone the beating of a defenceless prisoner (if indeed that is what happened - we seem to only have the word of one, probably local, witness based on the information I have seen so far) - however, when facing an enemy that lurks in the shadows, does not have the balls to show itself openly, and is virtually indistinguishable from the locals who just want to get on with their lives, we sometimes need the leeway to bring some pressure to bear in order to achieve the objective and save lives (in this case, both ours AND theirs). The present ROE and constraints do not allow for this, and when it is done out of urgent necessity, we are lambasted in the press, the muslim world gets hold of it and the situation is inflamed further.
I do not want gangland-style beatings, or anything else that is unnecessarily cruel, but I have no problem with causing stress, embarrasment, inconvenience, insult, fear - even a little pain if necessary, in order to gather vital, life-saving intelligence. All of the above has been used to good effect since time immemoriam, yet it is now considered 'bad'.
We will not win this war without getting a bit 'down and dirty' when necessary - and sometimes it IS necessary. You cannot fight a war by 'asking nicely' - if you could, we wouldn't need to carry guns!
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Sadly, I fear that those involved may have been influenced by the attitude and behavior of US personnel. If there is anything positive to come out of this it is surely a requirement for other governments in the coalition to make it a condition of their active participation that standards of treatment of those in custody are acceptable to all parties.
There are other issues of concern about American behavior (friendly fire, direct shooting of journalists, and use of excessive firepower causing unacceptable collateral damage to name a few) but this one is pervasive. Lets us be frank (for the sake of the many victims in awful situations) – the Americans have a long history of downright barbaric treatment of detainees – from the Rhine camps (at the end of WW2) to the containers in Afghanistan (remember them?) – episodes that make Guantanamo Bay seem like Butlins.
If UK personnel are to support them in future, working closely with them, then the US must lift its game.
There are other issues of concern about American behavior (friendly fire, direct shooting of journalists, and use of excessive firepower causing unacceptable collateral damage to name a few) but this one is pervasive. Lets us be frank (for the sake of the many victims in awful situations) – the Americans have a long history of downright barbaric treatment of detainees – from the Rhine camps (at the end of WW2) to the containers in Afghanistan (remember them?) – episodes that make Guantanamo Bay seem like Butlins.
If UK personnel are to support them in future, working closely with them, then the US must lift its game.
