Our Brave Boys? Or Murdering Thugs?
Very simple guys, you shoot unarmed or wounded prisoners you are lowering yourself to the same level as your enemies.
Furthermore, it means that the unit concerned has cr@p discipline, at least in my humble opinion as a former lowly Lt.
Furthermore, for those of you who fly over that area, do you think your chances of surviving as a prisoner are enhanced or retarded by OUR treatment of prisoners?
Be very careful who you talk to about this stuff and don't expect any Australians to join in. One guy almost got Court Martialled for kicking a dead body in East Timor a few years ago. they take it very seriously down here.
Furthermore, it means that the unit concerned has cr@p discipline, at least in my humble opinion as a former lowly Lt.
Furthermore, for those of you who fly over that area, do you think your chances of surviving as a prisoner are enhanced or retarded by OUR treatment of prisoners?
Be very careful who you talk to about this stuff and don't expect any Australians to join in. One guy almost got Court Martialled for kicking a dead body in East Timor a few years ago. they take it very seriously down here.
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I believe the fundamental cause of the mess the Coalition is in, is that there was no plan or infrastructure ready to deploy when the Forces 'won' the war. The Coalition was supposed to make Iraq a place for the people to go about their daily lives free of tyranny, terror and oppression; instead, we are largely seen as an occupying force.
What should have happened was that Iraq should have been flooded with units designed to win the hearts and minds - vast numbers of engineers equipped to quickly restore essential utilities such as water, electricity and sewage; part of that force should have been large numbers of specialists to police the towns and villages, including personnel trained in proper and effective people and prisoner handling and interrogation. Had we done that right at the beginning, more of the ordinary Iraqi in the street would have been right on-side and working with us to expose individuals and groups that threaten the aims of the operation.
Instead, they got a muddle of planning, where winning the hearts and minds disappeared amongst the need to set priorities within the limited resources available; those who waited expectantly for the 'liberators' to make their lives easier were sorely disappointed and rapidly disillusioned, a perfect formula for non-cooperation.
Add to that the propaganda effect of the few relatively insignificant incidents that the Allied authorities and media blew out of all proportion, and the whole situation descended into a quagmire perfect for exploitation by the 'anti' brigade. They are the added dimension that is very effectively disrupting the transition to self-determination for the Iraqi people.
It is still not too late to rectify the situation, but it will call for a vast effort in manpower, materiel and money to get things right for the individual in the street throughout the country.
And it is fundamentally wrong for civilised people to mis-treat captives, no matter what they are accused of having done...
What should have happened was that Iraq should have been flooded with units designed to win the hearts and minds - vast numbers of engineers equipped to quickly restore essential utilities such as water, electricity and sewage; part of that force should have been large numbers of specialists to police the towns and villages, including personnel trained in proper and effective people and prisoner handling and interrogation. Had we done that right at the beginning, more of the ordinary Iraqi in the street would have been right on-side and working with us to expose individuals and groups that threaten the aims of the operation.
Instead, they got a muddle of planning, where winning the hearts and minds disappeared amongst the need to set priorities within the limited resources available; those who waited expectantly for the 'liberators' to make their lives easier were sorely disappointed and rapidly disillusioned, a perfect formula for non-cooperation.
Add to that the propaganda effect of the few relatively insignificant incidents that the Allied authorities and media blew out of all proportion, and the whole situation descended into a quagmire perfect for exploitation by the 'anti' brigade. They are the added dimension that is very effectively disrupting the transition to self-determination for the Iraqi people.
It is still not too late to rectify the situation, but it will call for a vast effort in manpower, materiel and money to get things right for the individual in the street throughout the country.
And it is fundamentally wrong for civilised people to mis-treat captives, no matter what they are accused of having done...
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The mistreating of prisoners is wrong, no matter what has happened in any war. This is just a way of the REMF's to prove how "tough" they are and to have something to talk about when getting home. The REMF's will be sH1tting themselves when being put in the front to face the real enemy.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
16 blades,
Sorry but it is just wrong.
You are way our of order if you attempt to defend this sort of thing.
Sorry but it is just wrong.
You are way our of order if you attempt to defend this sort of thing.
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Well Jack Bauer, the problem is that you aren't always right as to whose head you chop off or torture. So many non coms and downright unlucky people get caught up in events. Every innocent person you hurt gives a whole family of resentment to act as a recruiting sergeant to the "insurgents". I do understand the anger and righteous indignation that makes us lash out. I've done it myself and I'm not even a soldier. But this is what military discipline is supposed to obviate. Iraq is not Stalingrad and US and UK soldiers are not being forced to fight at gunpoint by NKVD or Gestapo thugs.
Iraq is a civilised cultured society which has endured thirty years of dictatorship, injustice and war. Look where it finds its self now. If we had been "liberated" from a dictatorship and found ourselves being treated in this way how would we respond? I really must watch "Red Dawn" to see what the Yanks would have done.
Look, in the end, in the interests of "victory" we must be better than the people we fight or we simply either will not win or have to kill and destroy such a large area of the Middle East as to demoralise totally the entire region. We managed it in Germany by saturation bombing and leaving five hundred thousand US troops in addition to French, English and Russians to police the place for years after. Never mind the dead we left behind.
I would contend that the man who really won that war was General George Marshal who very early on in the war started planning for the rebuilding of Europe.
Learn the lessons of the past or just suffer the mistakes.
Iraq is a civilised cultured society which has endured thirty years of dictatorship, injustice and war. Look where it finds its self now. If we had been "liberated" from a dictatorship and found ourselves being treated in this way how would we respond? I really must watch "Red Dawn" to see what the Yanks would have done.
Look, in the end, in the interests of "victory" we must be better than the people we fight or we simply either will not win or have to kill and destroy such a large area of the Middle East as to demoralise totally the entire region. We managed it in Germany by saturation bombing and leaving five hundred thousand US troops in addition to French, English and Russians to police the place for years after. Never mind the dead we left behind.
I would contend that the man who really won that war was General George Marshal who very early on in the war started planning for the rebuilding of Europe.
Learn the lessons of the past or just suffer the mistakes.
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If the enemy is a signatory of the Geneva Convention, then treat them under those rules, if they are not a signatory, then treat them iaw the 10 commandments - do unto others, before they do you.
PileUp Officer,
Nor covet thy neighbours ass.
Nor covet thy neighbours ass.
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Scapegoat
Hang on a sec.
The article states that prisoners were mistreated - bad. I don't agree with it.
To say there are no excuses is not right though. Unless one was there (and I was not as I suspect most on this thread were not), it must be impossible to judge the emotions that go through ones mind.
As an ex Inf instructor, we train soldiers, some of which have less intelligence than some of the readers of this thread, to KILL. We also train them that comrades are important. Imagine how these soldiers must have felt when they saw a friend or brother killed or wounded. I for one am not surprised that these things happen.
But to put the CO on trial over the actions of a few of his 500 soldiers is ludicrous. Is the section commander, Platoon Commander, Company Commander, Brigade Commander etc etc etc all the way up to Buff himself also getting charged??? I think not.
Why ruin another good mans life and career just to satisfy those who don't understand close combat. It's time the Army stood up and told it like it is.
Let us not forget that before the holier than though preach too much, aircrew have done and do the same. What about the US Apache pilot who famously hunts down a lone person (assumed to be a soldier) on Infrared with the 30 mm and keeps going until he moves no more. - this is aircrew, educated people!
Rant over - Shell scrape being dug
The article states that prisoners were mistreated - bad. I don't agree with it.
To say there are no excuses is not right though. Unless one was there (and I was not as I suspect most on this thread were not), it must be impossible to judge the emotions that go through ones mind.
As an ex Inf instructor, we train soldiers, some of which have less intelligence than some of the readers of this thread, to KILL. We also train them that comrades are important. Imagine how these soldiers must have felt when they saw a friend or brother killed or wounded. I for one am not surprised that these things happen.
But to put the CO on trial over the actions of a few of his 500 soldiers is ludicrous. Is the section commander, Platoon Commander, Company Commander, Brigade Commander etc etc etc all the way up to Buff himself also getting charged??? I think not.
Why ruin another good mans life and career just to satisfy those who don't understand close combat. It's time the Army stood up and told it like it is.
Let us not forget that before the holier than though preach too much, aircrew have done and do the same. What about the US Apache pilot who famously hunts down a lone person (assumed to be a soldier) on Infrared with the 30 mm and keeps going until he moves no more. - this is aircrew, educated people!
Rant over - Shell scrape being dug
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The mistreating of prisoners is wrong, no matter what has happened in any war. This is just a way of the REMF's to prove how "tough" they are and to have something to talk about when getting home. The REMF's will be sH1tting themselves when being put in the front to face the real enemy.
Most of the documented incidents of brutality towards prisoners carried out in Iraq have been made by personnel from the 'teeth arms', which has been one of the attempted defences made by the perpetrators. "Oh, we have to fight these people and when forced to act as prison guards its inevitable that we are going to take out our frustrations on them", etc.
BTW, I'd be very interested to know (as would those in charge I guess) where exactly 'the front' is in Iraq at the moment and also who 'the real enemy' are. Do they wear a uniform and where abouts are their MOB's? What are their likely lines of advance and what ground do 'the real enemy' hold at the mo?
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16 Blades,
Please bare in mind, when we are talking about prisoners being beaten to death, and soldiers finding themselves in a difficult conflict, we are talking about two totally different things.
I find it more than a little disturbing when I see the deaths in custody written away with a brief "I do not condone", followed by line after line saying how "our boys" should be allowed to get on with the job.
In a court of law, a defendent's guilty plea will not be taken seriously if they go on to complain about how hard done by they are. Your general attitude seems to be more than a little dismissive of the deaths in custody, prefering to focus on the diffiulties our troops face.
Accept what has happened in this awful situation. Don't find ways to excuse it or explain it away.
Please bare in mind, when we are talking about prisoners being beaten to death, and soldiers finding themselves in a difficult conflict, we are talking about two totally different things.
I find it more than a little disturbing when I see the deaths in custody written away with a brief "I do not condone", followed by line after line saying how "our boys" should be allowed to get on with the job.
In a court of law, a defendent's guilty plea will not be taken seriously if they go on to complain about how hard done by they are. Your general attitude seems to be more than a little dismissive of the deaths in custody, prefering to focus on the diffiulties our troops face.
Accept what has happened in this awful situation. Don't find ways to excuse it or explain it away.
Suspicion breeds confidence
I find myself agreeing with Pr00ne and BEagle. Prisoners held under military jurisidiction should be treated humanely, while awaiting trial. I have no problem with these guys being sent trial and if found guilty being shot, but it's not for your average grunt to make those types of decisions.
Last edited by Navaleye; 23rd May 2005 at 16:28.
Thread Starter
And, Navaleye, if anyone thinks otherwise, they should NOT be serving in the UK Armed Forces.
The CO of any regiment which permits such atrocities should be obliged to resign. Period. No excuses.
The CO of any regiment which permits such atrocities should be obliged to resign. Period. No excuses.
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Right,
1. I am of the opinion that prisoners should be treated farily and justly, and according to the conventions that we helped create. We must strive to maintain civilised standards as an example.
2. Many of the prisoners subject to the alledged abuse are prisoners because there are alledgedly involved in the insurgency, taking the lives of allied troops.
3. There is a fine line between a bit of roughing up (fair enough) and flagrant abuse (unacceptable). This is sometimes easily crossed when you or one of your mates has just been shot at.
4. We seem all too willing to demonise the ALLEDGED perpetrators of this "abuse," without knowing all the facts.
My question is this. Why does the media, and hence the general public, seem to side with the enemy in this conflict?
1. I am of the opinion that prisoners should be treated farily and justly, and according to the conventions that we helped create. We must strive to maintain civilised standards as an example.
2. Many of the prisoners subject to the alledged abuse are prisoners because there are alledgedly involved in the insurgency, taking the lives of allied troops.
3. There is a fine line between a bit of roughing up (fair enough) and flagrant abuse (unacceptable). This is sometimes easily crossed when you or one of your mates has just been shot at.
4. We seem all too willing to demonise the ALLEDGED perpetrators of this "abuse," without knowing all the facts.
My question is this. Why does the media, and hence the general public, seem to side with the enemy in this conflict?
TurbineTooHot,
Whose siding with the enemy? Not tolerating flagrant abuses of human rights or a belief in decent standards of civilised behaviour is NOT siding with the enemy.
There have been numerous outright condemnations of kidnappings, beheadings and bombings from almost everywhere.
When you strut around the world claiming that you are a force for good you have to be as clean and untainted by this sort of thing as possible I am afraid, and rightly so.
Whose siding with the enemy? Not tolerating flagrant abuses of human rights or a belief in decent standards of civilised behaviour is NOT siding with the enemy.
There have been numerous outright condemnations of kidnappings, beheadings and bombings from almost everywhere.
When you strut around the world claiming that you are a force for good you have to be as clean and untainted by this sort of thing as possible I am afraid, and rightly so.
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TTH, it is part of an old tradition.
Now we can extrapolate this to the more PC, more global world. But it is very important especially in times of crisis to ensure that the armed forces in harm's way do their duty. Part of that military duty includes caring for prisoners according to the various conventions and laws, military and civil. I agree that it is very easy to resort to violence against a helpless opponent, but that is at the very least a failure of command. An officer is responsible for the conduct of the troops under that officer's command, at all levels of command.
As we in Britain and the US have civilian oversight of the military, it is also important to watch the watchers.
And the media reports this because it is sensational, and will generate good numbers (papers sold, news reports watched) from both the luvvies ("oh my god, the soldiers are animals") to the knuckle-draggers ("great to see those wogs getting what they deserve").
"England expects that every man will do his duty"
As we in Britain and the US have civilian oversight of the military, it is also important to watch the watchers.
And the media reports this because it is sensational, and will generate good numbers (papers sold, news reports watched) from both the luvvies ("oh my god, the soldiers are animals") to the knuckle-draggers ("great to see those wogs getting what they deserve").
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I don't see why the problem should be retsricted to Iraq. Here in cartoon town, some visiting airplane jumpers had the pleasure in beating the crap out of a WAAF a few months ago. Caught on CCTV and everything, yet never made the papers.
If control isn't exercised here then i'm afraid in a war environment you don't stand a chance.
If control isn't exercised here then i'm afraid in a war environment you don't stand a chance.
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TurbineTooHot,
This is not siding with the enemy. This is important.
In many peoples eyes (and crucually Islamic eyes) we are losing the battle for hearts and minds. Our only justification now for invasion, occupation, death and destruction on a massive scale is that we are bringing something different from Saddam Hussein's regime.
We can't maintain that high ground if our soldiers are resorting to this kind of behaviour.
Unless we can distinguish ourselves from the enemy there is really no hope of winning the war - if there ever was.
The very act of an invasion and apparent occupation already puts US and UK forces on the back foot. If they want the support of the local populace they must uphold the very highest of standards. If these soldiers are indeed guilty as they seem then they have adhered to the worst possible standards, damaged the forces reputation and put their own forces in much greater danger.
Many also believe this kind of event is just the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps the media really should make a song and dance about this in order to get it in the open and help transparency. Hopefully that will also discourage any other yobs from resorting to the same.
Looking at the numbers arrested by US and UK forces who are then released it seems highly likely that many of these detainees are quite simply picked up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If that results in being beaten to death then what claim do we have over Saddam's regime?
This is not siding with the enemy. This is important.
In many peoples eyes (and crucually Islamic eyes) we are losing the battle for hearts and minds. Our only justification now for invasion, occupation, death and destruction on a massive scale is that we are bringing something different from Saddam Hussein's regime.
We can't maintain that high ground if our soldiers are resorting to this kind of behaviour.
Unless we can distinguish ourselves from the enemy there is really no hope of winning the war - if there ever was.
The very act of an invasion and apparent occupation already puts US and UK forces on the back foot. If they want the support of the local populace they must uphold the very highest of standards. If these soldiers are indeed guilty as they seem then they have adhered to the worst possible standards, damaged the forces reputation and put their own forces in much greater danger.
Many also believe this kind of event is just the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps the media really should make a song and dance about this in order to get it in the open and help transparency. Hopefully that will also discourage any other yobs from resorting to the same.
Looking at the numbers arrested by US and UK forces who are then released it seems highly likely that many of these detainees are quite simply picked up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If that results in being beaten to death then what claim do we have over Saddam's regime?
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Nice 'guilty until proven guilty' post Dave Martin.
As the recent Koran incident proved, it doesn’t matter what the truth is to this story or any similar, the 'Arab street' will jump on any perceived transgression broadcast by a sensationalist media - so think before you transmit, as they used to say. All this whilst conveniently forgetting the transgressions of their fellow Muslims (remember the bit in the Koran about not killing co-religionists?)
So if some army officer is being threatened with court-marshal for a death he supposedly had ‘command authority’ for can we expect to see similar for the Newsweek journalist and his editor for the 14 (conservative estimate) deaths they are responsible for?
Oh no, I forgot, accountability doesn’t work for the press does it?
As the recent Koran incident proved, it doesn’t matter what the truth is to this story or any similar, the 'Arab street' will jump on any perceived transgression broadcast by a sensationalist media - so think before you transmit, as they used to say. All this whilst conveniently forgetting the transgressions of their fellow Muslims (remember the bit in the Koran about not killing co-religionists?)
So if some army officer is being threatened with court-marshal for a death he supposedly had ‘command authority’ for can we expect to see similar for the Newsweek journalist and his editor for the 14 (conservative estimate) deaths they are responsible for?
Oh no, I forgot, accountability doesn’t work for the press does it?