Aircrew Hmmmmmmmmm!
Pilot Officer PPRuNe
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Who cares as long as the right people are in the job. Of course, there in lies the problem
As for what rank I would do the job as... don't care (my rank hasn't changed for many, many years anyway), just let me fly, and pay me enough to keep the CSA off my back and enough that I don't have to leave to join an airline.
Tonks
As for what rank I would do the job as... don't care (my rank hasn't changed for many, many years anyway), just let me fly, and pay me enough to keep the CSA off my back and enough that I don't have to leave to join an airline.
Tonks
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We still had NCO Pilots and Navigators in the late 60's, some of whom were still in their 20's.
The original decision that aircrew should be at least of SNCO status was made on the grounds that they would operate over enemy territory and were liable to be captured if shot down.
Those prisoners of JNCO rank or lower can be put to work under the Geneva Convention. SNCO's can only be made to supervise.
The original decision that aircrew should be at least of SNCO status was made on the grounds that they would operate over enemy territory and were liable to be captured if shot down.
Those prisoners of JNCO rank or lower can be put to work under the Geneva Convention. SNCO's can only be made to supervise.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Oh dear gentlemen/ladies,
I fear that you are forgetting a few very important aspects of the officer Corps.
Leadership - I hope that Cranditz, Sandhurst and Dartmouth all still require, expect and develop leadership. As we all know any monkey can fly in CAVOK in peacetime. At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.
A cockpit, a formation a flight will all require leadership.
I am not saying for one moment that the NCO community cannot lead, but officer selection identifies those at an earlier age that have the potential to lead (hence young officers get a platoon, flight or Division).
The NCO's rely on experience to obtain/develop their leadership potential which may take extra time, hence the LE, SD, upper yardy ex-ranker career path.
And I hope that just having A Levels isn't the only quality to become an officer, or being able to read the Times - I hope that the selection process is far more mature and well rounded than that (I for one was on an intake with a Cambridge Grad and a genuine extremely intelligent bloke, but absolutely no common sense or flexible approach to problem solving)
So before it de-generates into an Officer/NCO thing - not worth it. We all know we need the young officers, selected at an early age to lead, and we all know we need the NCOs that bring measured experience and guidance to the young officers. In today's Services there is so much scope for NCOs to hop across onto the officer line (if they have the proven ability) and officers to step off the career line and become the senior mentors in flying suits.
I dares say that when we run out of officers, we will just either employ NCOs or promote them (look at the number of ex-AAC NCOs now holding down important jobs and Staff posts in JHC HQ and key positions in the AAC because it farms all of its Direct Entry officers off to 'career' jobs outside of the flying environment and there are not enough AAC officers to go around.
But the age old question....do we all need to be officers? For example in a formation of 4 aircraft, can the lead and deputy lead be officers, the other 2 NCOs? It seems to have served the Air Corps well, but about the only thing the AAC has got right in its entire short history!
I fear that you are forgetting a few very important aspects of the officer Corps.
Leadership - I hope that Cranditz, Sandhurst and Dartmouth all still require, expect and develop leadership. As we all know any monkey can fly in CAVOK in peacetime. At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.
A cockpit, a formation a flight will all require leadership.
I am not saying for one moment that the NCO community cannot lead, but officer selection identifies those at an earlier age that have the potential to lead (hence young officers get a platoon, flight or Division).
The NCO's rely on experience to obtain/develop their leadership potential which may take extra time, hence the LE, SD, upper yardy ex-ranker career path.
And I hope that just having A Levels isn't the only quality to become an officer, or being able to read the Times - I hope that the selection process is far more mature and well rounded than that (I for one was on an intake with a Cambridge Grad and a genuine extremely intelligent bloke, but absolutely no common sense or flexible approach to problem solving)
So before it de-generates into an Officer/NCO thing - not worth it. We all know we need the young officers, selected at an early age to lead, and we all know we need the NCOs that bring measured experience and guidance to the young officers. In today's Services there is so much scope for NCOs to hop across onto the officer line (if they have the proven ability) and officers to step off the career line and become the senior mentors in flying suits.
I dares say that when we run out of officers, we will just either employ NCOs or promote them (look at the number of ex-AAC NCOs now holding down important jobs and Staff posts in JHC HQ and key positions in the AAC because it farms all of its Direct Entry officers off to 'career' jobs outside of the flying environment and there are not enough AAC officers to go around.
But the age old question....do we all need to be officers? For example in a formation of 4 aircraft, can the lead and deputy lead be officers, the other 2 NCOs? It seems to have served the Air Corps well, but about the only thing the AAC has got right in its entire short history!
Red On, Green On
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At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.
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At war, transition to war, in atrocious weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.
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Here we go 
Hooligans have experience (remember the bit about young officers selected with leadership in mind etc etc), most of the guys going for selection have a number of years experience in which their leadership skills have been developed. Rarely do you get an NCO going straight for selection straight after basic trg.
And HS, we all know that any system is not fool proof and there will always be those that slip through the net (just like there are some real knobs of the commissioned types, there are some equal to$$ers in the NCO world) - I would hope that in all cases natural selection weeds them out!!
Hooligans have experience (remember the bit about young officers selected with leadership in mind etc etc), most of the guys going for selection have a number of years experience in which their leadership skills have been developed. Rarely do you get an NCO going straight for selection straight after basic trg.
And HS, we all know that any system is not fool proof and there will always be those that slip through the net (just like there are some real knobs of the commissioned types, there are some equal to$$ers in the NCO world) - I would hope that in all cases natural selection weeds them out!!
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maroonman4, Your point about young officers running Flts etc is not very accurate. On PAPER they are the flight commander, but in my experience it was the senior NCO pilot or Sqn. QHI that actually mentored and provided direction to the young Lt or Capt..
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As far as I remember the absolute requirement for commissioned personnel as aircrew came about as a result of the decision to have the British nuclear deterrent with the V-Force.
Anyone who joins and believes "I want to be an officer first" etc is an idiot who does not deserve to be commissioned in the first place.
Stands back, incoming flack, but in reality we all have to have skills which can be transferrable. Gone are the days when the forces were a way of life. Unless I have missed something it's just a job but the government will take full advantage of your commitment.
Anyone who joins and believes "I want to be an officer first" etc is an idiot who does not deserve to be commissioned in the first place.
Stands back, incoming flack, but in reality we all have to have skills which can be transferrable. Gone are the days when the forces were a way of life. Unless I have missed something it's just a job but the government will take full advantage of your commitment.
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MaroonMan4,
Earlier in the post you stated:
"Leadership - I hope that Cranditz, Sandhurst and Dartmouth all still require, expect and develop leadership. As we all know any monkey can fly in CAVOK in peacetime. At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.
A cockpit, a formation a flight will all require leadership.
I am not saying for one moment that the NCO community cannot lead, but officer selection identifies those at an earlier age that have the potential to lead (hence young officers get a platoon, flight or Division).
The NCO's rely on experience to obtain/develop their leadership potential which may take extra time, hence the LE, SD, upper yardy ex-ranker career path."
You have forgotten that NCO aircrew are also selected for their leadership potential and abilities and go through much the same training regime. It may not be as long, it may not have the pomp and circumstance, but the system works and regularly outputs SNCO's with much greater leadership abilities than those graduating with a commision.
As for the officers earning their money when the going gets tough; please dont insult me, you should hear the whinging that comes from the officer 1/2 of a certain 4jet MPA....
I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.
C_E
Earlier in the post you stated:
"Leadership - I hope that Cranditz, Sandhurst and Dartmouth all still require, expect and develop leadership. As we all know any monkey can fly in CAVOK in peacetime. At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.
A cockpit, a formation a flight will all require leadership.
I am not saying for one moment that the NCO community cannot lead, but officer selection identifies those at an earlier age that have the potential to lead (hence young officers get a platoon, flight or Division).
The NCO's rely on experience to obtain/develop their leadership potential which may take extra time, hence the LE, SD, upper yardy ex-ranker career path."
You have forgotten that NCO aircrew are also selected for their leadership potential and abilities and go through much the same training regime. It may not be as long, it may not have the pomp and circumstance, but the system works and regularly outputs SNCO's with much greater leadership abilities than those graduating with a commision.
As for the officers earning their money when the going gets tough; please dont insult me, you should hear the whinging that comes from the officer 1/2 of a certain 4jet MPA....
I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.
C_E
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I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.
Respect is earned, not issued by Cranwell Clothing Stores.
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Rewind required...or should that be rewind-up....
According to my aircrew manual...healthy bedtime reading...the crew consists of Pilot...Co-pilot...Navigator...Air eng(top bloke)...Air Loadmaster( another top bloke). I am willing to be corrected for other a/c types...but...there is no mention of any...suppliers,admin clerks,plods,nurses etc .
Have i lost an AL or is there a wannabe culture out there..????
According to my aircrew manual...healthy bedtime reading...the crew consists of Pilot...Co-pilot...Navigator...Air eng(top bloke)...Air Loadmaster( another top bloke). I am willing to be corrected for other a/c types...but...there is no mention of any...suppliers,admin clerks,plods,nurses etc .
Have i lost an AL or is there a wannabe culture out there..????
Lets see:
You need A levels to be an Officer/Pilot, many SAC Techncians have A levels.
You need A levels to be an Officer/Pilot, many SAC Techncians have A levels.
Why are you actually worried about whether pilots should be officers or NCOs? If, as has been said, there are plenty of adequately qualified people around who are currently NCOs, why don't they cross over?
This strikes me as the sort of thread that will degenerate into pathetic mud-slinging. I wanted to be a pilot, and I'm very happy being an officer. If there're SAC Techs out there with degrees, I'm sure they're very happy with their job; and if they're not, I'm sure they're taking steps to change it.
Just because someone in a "lower" job has the qualifications to do another one doesn't instantly mean the system's screwed. I'm sure I'm qualified to be Prime Minister, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to sit here being a pilot
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According to my aircrew manual...healthy bedtime reading...the crew consists of Pilot...Co-pilot...Navigator...Air eng(top bloke)...Air Loadmaster( another top bloke).
Ever seen an Air eng doing a t/r properly??
Thats why big aircraft have GE/ Crew Chiefs..
YOU CAN TEACH A MONKEY HOW TO RIDE A BIKE......BUT HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MONKEY FIX ONE???
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Ever seen a crew chief(americanism)/GE awake in the cruise...the best are always asleep just in case they are needed cease flying..!!! Cant remember last time GE turned down a helping hand on a snag/AF/BF/TR....!!!!
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5 GCSEs/SCEs and 2 A-levels or 3 Highers or equivalent. GCSEs/SCEs at Grade C/3 minimum to include English language and maths....... or equivalent. So you could join with 5 o levels, a degree in Botany...but no A levels.
How do I know this???? cos I is this..? Actually I got 6 o levels but the GS one shouldnt count as I cheated.
How do I know this???? cos I is this..? Actually I got 6 o levels but the GS one shouldnt count as I cheated.
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Willy Waving, BOLLEAUX
Helpful Stacker quote:
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I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.
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Agreed and I'll add;
Respect is earned, not issued by Cranwell Clothing Stores.
Yes you are right, but it goes both ways. The number of times I have been ...through the gate/at stores/anywhere etc on an RAF Station, I have been treated with the utmost disrespect on many occasions, just because I are a pilot. Not too good at inglish, I were a swimming pool lifeguard before becoming a pilot. However I have never been the cause of friction anywhere because I deem myself better than anyone else. If provoked I will retaliate, however I am always polite and cordial until provoked. I even saluted a Fg Off because I was in his office ( Me Flt Lt at the time) as a mark of respect to his appointment/status. A mate who went through IOT with me said he was instructed as an SAC to hate all officers on sight and give them the run around whenever possible. I rest my case. If the hatb fits and you are a C**T you deserve what you get, however it pisses me off when officers get tarred with one brush. Sorry Rant over!
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I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed and I'll add;
Respect is earned, not issued by Cranwell Clothing Stores.
Yes you are right, but it goes both ways. The number of times I have been ...through the gate/at stores/anywhere etc on an RAF Station, I have been treated with the utmost disrespect on many occasions, just because I are a pilot. Not too good at inglish, I were a swimming pool lifeguard before becoming a pilot. However I have never been the cause of friction anywhere because I deem myself better than anyone else. If provoked I will retaliate, however I am always polite and cordial until provoked. I even saluted a Fg Off because I was in his office ( Me Flt Lt at the time) as a mark of respect to his appointment/status. A mate who went through IOT with me said he was instructed as an SAC to hate all officers on sight and give them the run around whenever possible. I rest my case. If the hatb fits and you are a C**T you deserve what you get, however it pisses me off when officers get tarred with one brush. Sorry Rant over!