BALPA/GATCO Forum 2005 - The Safety of Public Transport Flights Outside CAS
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Danger Arteas/OTAs et all
Deliverance describes a size of 50x20nms as a minimum for any segregated airspace for such activities as takes place at the moment in the OTAs - particularly in the OTA E north of Newcastle. I do not see what is the problem about creating an overland MDA - surely CAT and GA pilots, it has got to be better to have a fully publicised military operating area, of known lateral and vertical dimensions, operating within notified hours booked with MABC the day before - then NOTAMed for the world to see. This would then incorporate the flexible use of airspace (FUA) and surely to the ultimate safety of ALL class G airspace users.
Comment was made regarding the Fighter Areas of Responsibility (FAOR) that are used during the major exercises - and the main area of concern seemed to be above FL245. I have to say that the comments made are plainly wrong - great efforts are made during the JMC Exercises to ensure that by co-ordination between the ScOACC Airways ATC Supervisor and the Exercise Planners the greatest use is made of FUA. Only one of the FAORs (in the JMC there are 2 - North and South) are used on any one day - and they are often capped (by NOTAM they are published as up to 55,000ft) at FL300 to enable the westbound Oceanic flow to proceed unhindered.
The problem, it seems to me, is at the policy making level - and the almost war between civil and military policy makers about how the airspace is divided up. If you look in mainland Europe there is a very restrictive aspect to military activity. In the UK there has traditionally been a more flexible approach. It would seem that this flexibility is getting a little brittle!! Surely (and I repeat myself) the greatest use of FUA must be made, and this should incorporate the creation of Overland sizeable MDAs that should be booked and used sensibly by Sqns and Exercise Planners - so that flight safety continues to be #1; and the CAT/GA are also able to have fair and safe co-use of the airspace.
Our Military aircrew have essential training to do, and it should be done in an airspace in which they are confident that they can complete the training safely and unhindered. CAT pilots have an onerous responsibility - the safety of their aircraft and passengers (not to mention themselves) whilst the airline management have made the decision to operate in the open FIR of Class G. As I have said in an earlier submission - statistically a mid-air collision in the open FIR of Class G is getting ever closer to reality with each passing day that one does not occur. THIS MUST BE SORTED OUT - NOW!
Take up the Hold
Not being military aircrew - my understanding is that unlike in the MDAs where the operations are mostly F3s v F3s - the OTAs are where the GR4s/Harriers/Jaguars are operating low level OVER LAND, whilst being bounced by the AD world - hence the need for the overland training.
I am sure someone from the RAF 2 Wing Master Race will tell me if I am wrong!
Comment was made regarding the Fighter Areas of Responsibility (FAOR) that are used during the major exercises - and the main area of concern seemed to be above FL245. I have to say that the comments made are plainly wrong - great efforts are made during the JMC Exercises to ensure that by co-ordination between the ScOACC Airways ATC Supervisor and the Exercise Planners the greatest use is made of FUA. Only one of the FAORs (in the JMC there are 2 - North and South) are used on any one day - and they are often capped (by NOTAM they are published as up to 55,000ft) at FL300 to enable the westbound Oceanic flow to proceed unhindered.
The problem, it seems to me, is at the policy making level - and the almost war between civil and military policy makers about how the airspace is divided up. If you look in mainland Europe there is a very restrictive aspect to military activity. In the UK there has traditionally been a more flexible approach. It would seem that this flexibility is getting a little brittle!! Surely (and I repeat myself) the greatest use of FUA must be made, and this should incorporate the creation of Overland sizeable MDAs that should be booked and used sensibly by Sqns and Exercise Planners - so that flight safety continues to be #1; and the CAT/GA are also able to have fair and safe co-use of the airspace.
Our Military aircrew have essential training to do, and it should be done in an airspace in which they are confident that they can complete the training safely and unhindered. CAT pilots have an onerous responsibility - the safety of their aircraft and passengers (not to mention themselves) whilst the airline management have made the decision to operate in the open FIR of Class G. As I have said in an earlier submission - statistically a mid-air collision in the open FIR of Class G is getting ever closer to reality with each passing day that one does not occur. THIS MUST BE SORTED OUT - NOW!
Take up the Hold
Not being military aircrew - my understanding is that unlike in the MDAs where the operations are mostly F3s v F3s - the OTAs are where the GR4s/Harriers/Jaguars are operating low level OVER LAND, whilst being bounced by the AD world - hence the need for the overland training.
I am sure someone from the RAF 2 Wing Master Race will tell me if I am wrong!
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"We do not need protection from Civ ac, they need protection from us. That is what class A airspace exists for. Use it."
"Military aircraft regularly infringe controlled airspace and cause problems to civil controllers."
"is absolutely no need for ac to transit through such large areas of Class G when Class A exists."
Just a few of the comments earlier but in my view shows a total lack of appreciation of anything other than the particular type of aviation from which the contributors hail. There are many users of class G for whom class A is not an alternative for a variety of reasons, usually because the destination is in class G. 16 Blades for example- what would you do with all the airports that do not have CAS surrounding them? Similarly for the civilian CAT operators do you want to swamp the entire country with class A? Please let us show a bit of understanding and learn from the others rather than (as it seems) slagging each other off. I do not like LL fast jets because of the dangers in T/O and landing at airfields in class G. Equally I hate to find a CAT operator way off level in CAS. Both quite alarming when one does not have TCAS.
How do we improve the situation in class G for the benefit of the majority users which according to NATS shows 76% of all flights in the UK is GA traffic.
"Military aircraft regularly infringe controlled airspace and cause problems to civil controllers."
"is absolutely no need for ac to transit through such large areas of Class G when Class A exists."
Just a few of the comments earlier but in my view shows a total lack of appreciation of anything other than the particular type of aviation from which the contributors hail. There are many users of class G for whom class A is not an alternative for a variety of reasons, usually because the destination is in class G. 16 Blades for example- what would you do with all the airports that do not have CAS surrounding them? Similarly for the civilian CAT operators do you want to swamp the entire country with class A? Please let us show a bit of understanding and learn from the others rather than (as it seems) slagging each other off. I do not like LL fast jets because of the dangers in T/O and landing at airfields in class G. Equally I hate to find a CAT operator way off level in CAS. Both quite alarming when one does not have TCAS.
How do we improve the situation in class G for the benefit of the majority users which according to NATS shows 76% of all flights in the UK is GA traffic.
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I suspect we are all in agreement here. Airspace is a finite asset and, in the UK, there isn't actually too much left to play with. Those of us who maintain the attitude that "i'm more important and therfore I need it" are still living in the dark ages. Eutopia, according to WBS would be:
a. An effective and mandated collision warning system for all aircraft.
b. Where there are mixed CAT and military operations, priority (and therefore compliance) should be tactically agreed between controllers.
c. Greater provision of ATSOCAS, or whatever it may evolve into, together with an increased guarantee of availability.
d. Better application of Class D and E airspace. In Class D, VFR flights should be accommodated wherever possible.
e. Greater understanding of each other's roles. It is no use bleating about something one does not understand.
f. Tighter regulation of operators who knowingly fly passengers through 'bandit country' when there is an available, albeit at increased expense, alternative.
Off to lie down
a. An effective and mandated collision warning system for all aircraft.
b. Where there are mixed CAT and military operations, priority (and therefore compliance) should be tactically agreed between controllers.
c. Greater provision of ATSOCAS, or whatever it may evolve into, together with an increased guarantee of availability.
d. Better application of Class D and E airspace. In Class D, VFR flights should be accommodated wherever possible.
e. Greater understanding of each other's roles. It is no use bleating about something one does not understand.
f. Tighter regulation of operators who knowingly fly passengers through 'bandit country' when there is an available, albeit at increased expense, alternative.
Off to lie down
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NATS shows 76% of all flights in the UK is GA traffic
I have to agree with a previous poster, that the lack of military TSA, MOA, MDA, whatever you want to call it over land, is unacceptable for an airforce.
A OTA is mentioned. Wold it not solve som of the problem for the mil guys, if the area became part of an class D or higher CTA with a base lower then the cruise of typical GAT in the area, and call the OTA a TSA? Then the GAT would have to go around when it's active.
The military would still have the same space available.
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M609 - I don't have the answer to FL95 question, maybe no one does but it does seem a valid question never the less. I was trying to point out that as GA is by far and away the greatest users of all airspace outside class A then should the rules be written for GA benefit and others take second place? Of course not and as Whipping Boy's SATCO pointed out "Those of us who maintain the attitude that "i'm more important and therefore I need it" are still living in the dark ages." attitude is going to kill one day. No one is more important user than the next, no matter what hardware you drive. Be a lot less arrogant, be a better and safer driver. Everyone makes mistakes so learn from them and obey the rules better next flight.
