Eurofighter - Last seen.....
Its performance is unbelievable. A few years ago, I was refuelling a pair of EFs. When cleared to leave, the first guy asked for the block FL450-510 or thereabouts, dropped back, plugged in the heaters, came past, pitched to what looked like about an 80 deg climb and a few seconds later reported entering the block. No 2 then left and requested FL480 and was told "Not above FL450 until cleared, one similar type already established in the block FL450-510.....
When would such a call last have been made to an RAF aircraft, I wonder?
When would such a call last have been made to an RAF aircraft, I wonder?
Soddim,
Just how quickly can jam be made?
Once you have the fruit and the sugar and whatever other ingredients you need plus the sterilzing equipment, the bottling plant, the funny twisty machine that puts the lids on, having tried a good few mixtures and blends, carried out market research, product branding. All this after having established that the soil is good, tilled it, fertilized it, irrigated it, planted and nurtured your chosen variety of fruit, found a location that has the right mix of sunshine and showers. Then you'll have to keep the insects at bay during the growth cycle, employ some workers to pick the fruit (while not eating the really sweet stuff), transport it, clean it, store it in a building you've had to find or build. And oh by the way the Government health and safety inspector drops by every now and again to make sure you're doing it all correctly.
Now where's my (cold) toast??
And now Damson flavour is sooooo last year.
Requirement drafting to declared operational capability with HASs full of jets is money for jam indeed.
T
Just how quickly can jam be made?
Once you have the fruit and the sugar and whatever other ingredients you need plus the sterilzing equipment, the bottling plant, the funny twisty machine that puts the lids on, having tried a good few mixtures and blends, carried out market research, product branding. All this after having established that the soil is good, tilled it, fertilized it, irrigated it, planted and nurtured your chosen variety of fruit, found a location that has the right mix of sunshine and showers. Then you'll have to keep the insects at bay during the growth cycle, employ some workers to pick the fruit (while not eating the really sweet stuff), transport it, clean it, store it in a building you've had to find or build. And oh by the way the Government health and safety inspector drops by every now and again to make sure you're doing it all correctly.
Now where's my (cold) toast??
And now Damson flavour is sooooo last year.
Requirement drafting to declared operational capability with HASs full of jets is money for jam indeed.
T
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Look - I wasn't goin' to rise - again. But you've made me.
Under this, and another 'name', along with my pal Jacko (sorry, never met), we've continued to give Typhoon its rightful dues (albeit also crticised its political, MoD & industrial shortcomings). I spent more than 20 years alongside Tornado - MoD/flying the thing/marketing it. I then did 12 years (yawn) helping to develop Typhoon in all its forms, and then marketed the beast - never flown it, but sim'd it a lot and have lived around those that have been 'live'.
So what! Boring old fart! But the aircraft is coming alive at last, and though the conception was long ago, that, in modernistic terms, has little to do with its purpose or longevity. If 'you' take great care to consider its current (yes, 17 year old) spec, and, as Tarnished alluded to, its 'potential', the weapon system, is, aside from Raptor, unassailable - for decades. Oh - and I forgot- it's Brit (again sorry, European).
But to most who post here with an opposite, and mostly spotter (inc RAF and old JW), anti-BWoS view (that'll get you going), that matters to me not a jot. Do by all means go for your alternative view, though god knows what'll that be - US, French, eh? With all the attendant lack of performance/spec/software access and development growth in-country etc, etc
Typhoon - jam today, and jam tomorrow.
Under this, and another 'name', along with my pal Jacko (sorry, never met), we've continued to give Typhoon its rightful dues (albeit also crticised its political, MoD & industrial shortcomings). I spent more than 20 years alongside Tornado - MoD/flying the thing/marketing it. I then did 12 years (yawn) helping to develop Typhoon in all its forms, and then marketed the beast - never flown it, but sim'd it a lot and have lived around those that have been 'live'.
So what! Boring old fart! But the aircraft is coming alive at last, and though the conception was long ago, that, in modernistic terms, has little to do with its purpose or longevity. If 'you' take great care to consider its current (yes, 17 year old) spec, and, as Tarnished alluded to, its 'potential', the weapon system, is, aside from Raptor, unassailable - for decades. Oh - and I forgot- it's Brit (again sorry, European).
But to most who post here with an opposite, and mostly spotter (inc RAF and old JW), anti-BWoS view (that'll get you going), that matters to me not a jot. Do by all means go for your alternative view, though god knows what'll that be - US, French, eh? With all the attendant lack of performance/spec/software access and development growth in-country etc, etc
Typhoon - jam today, and jam tomorrow.
Last edited by jindabyne; 8th Mar 2005 at 21:25.
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mg - what??
zoom - oh dear, not again!?
Safeware
Please expand and I'm sure there'll be a response. Absence of what? Functionality? - all part of things more rapidly (perhaps less rapidly than we'd like in some areas - Mod?) expanding.
Leaning on the bar now - over to Tarnished ------- and where the hell is Tarnish1?
zoom - oh dear, not again!?
Safeware
Please expand and I'm sure there'll be a response. Absence of what? Functionality? - all part of things more rapidly (perhaps less rapidly than we'd like in some areas - Mod?) expanding.
Leaning on the bar now - over to Tarnished ------- and where the hell is Tarnish1?
Ah, the dreaded R word - Risk.
"We'll MOD the aircraft at our own risk" I think NOT!
You have obviously never been involved in the process of getting an aircraft "certificated" "release to service" or whatever guise you wish to call it. Since Crown Indemnity was removed not surprisingly ACAS has been less cavalier to sign off new aircraft and new mods, special trials fits etc. It is a sad truism of the world we live in that when young Biggles stoofs in, there will be a witch hunt, questions will be asked and fingers will be pointed, closely followed by blame, retribution and plagues of frogs.
The end result being, that unless the jet comes with a cast iron warranty, backed up by mountains of evidence in accordance with every known standard under the sun its just not going to crack it through the entry into service route. This is the main area that Q have been fulfilling in behalf of the MOD. IMHO they have too much authority and lack the responsibility to the end user in providing him with useable advice and clearances. But ACAS is not about to just take our word for it.
Sadly it is easier to say a categoric NO than putting the work in to come out with even a qualified YES.
Mr Daniels is doing well from this thread, must be nearly time for a blast.
T
Jindabyne, your old mucker was Tarnish 7, if you\'re on about the human whirlwind.
Zoom, only about the outboard 1/4 of the foreplane is visible from the normal sitting position, no one who has flown the jet has made any adverse comment - view from the office equal to F16/F15 but with far better birdstrike protection.
Safeware, clearance process, risk averse culture, money on the gov\'mt side. Clearance process, risk averse culture and managing change on industry side
T
"We'll MOD the aircraft at our own risk" I think NOT!
You have obviously never been involved in the process of getting an aircraft "certificated" "release to service" or whatever guise you wish to call it. Since Crown Indemnity was removed not surprisingly ACAS has been less cavalier to sign off new aircraft and new mods, special trials fits etc. It is a sad truism of the world we live in that when young Biggles stoofs in, there will be a witch hunt, questions will be asked and fingers will be pointed, closely followed by blame, retribution and plagues of frogs.
The end result being, that unless the jet comes with a cast iron warranty, backed up by mountains of evidence in accordance with every known standard under the sun its just not going to crack it through the entry into service route. This is the main area that Q have been fulfilling in behalf of the MOD. IMHO they have too much authority and lack the responsibility to the end user in providing him with useable advice and clearances. But ACAS is not about to just take our word for it.
Sadly it is easier to say a categoric NO than putting the work in to come out with even a qualified YES.
Mr Daniels is doing well from this thread, must be nearly time for a blast.
T
Jindabyne, your old mucker was Tarnish 7, if you\'re on about the human whirlwind.
Zoom, only about the outboard 1/4 of the foreplane is visible from the normal sitting position, no one who has flown the jet has made any adverse comment - view from the office equal to F16/F15 but with far better birdstrike protection.
Safeware, clearance process, risk averse culture, money on the gov\'mt side. Clearance process, risk averse culture and managing change on industry side
T
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T'd,
Oops, if you're referring to now thin Oz-man. No more time now for blasting here from me - off to the Smoke and things (more Jack) in the RAFC for a coupla days with old farts such as NF and old EF tales -----
Oops, if you're referring to now thin Oz-man. No more time now for blasting here from me - off to the Smoke and things (more Jack) in the RAFC for a coupla days with old farts such as NF and old EF tales -----
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I agree with Tarnished about Mod'ing our own aircraft. Who would carry out the Mod's? Given the complexity of a/c such as Typhoon, who other than the DO would want to take on the task?
As regards risk, I think you're wrong. Life has its risks, flying more-so, military flying greater etc etc. Therefore, when things go wrong, as they do, I don't think that a witch hunt is justified when the risks are well understood. If something unusual happens, investigate it, figure out why it wasn't identified as a risk before and manage accordingly. Unless you can deliver a risk free product, then there is no cast iron guarantee.
As an Engineer, I have never aimed to stop aircraft flying - that equals failure for me. What I have always aimed for is for those in authority, whether it be a pilot as he comes to sign for the jet or our lords and masters to understand and accept the risks.
I think you'll find that Q has no authority, and try to give the best advice possible, even a qualified 'yes'.
With 'Clearance Process' your first problem area on both sides why don't both sides put more effort into making the process more effective for all?
I think it is as much a technology issue as anything else. Too much was vested in the holy grail of technology in general and particularly computing power and the systems on a/c today (but designed so long ago) are no longer capable of coping. Until the a/c gets a new architecture, it is limited. There is only so much jam you can get into your jar.
As regards risk, I think you're wrong. Life has its risks, flying more-so, military flying greater etc etc. Therefore, when things go wrong, as they do, I don't think that a witch hunt is justified when the risks are well understood. If something unusual happens, investigate it, figure out why it wasn't identified as a risk before and manage accordingly. Unless you can deliver a risk free product, then there is no cast iron guarantee.
As an Engineer, I have never aimed to stop aircraft flying - that equals failure for me. What I have always aimed for is for those in authority, whether it be a pilot as he comes to sign for the jet or our lords and masters to understand and accept the risks.
I think you'll find that Q has no authority, and try to give the best advice possible, even a qualified 'yes'.
With 'Clearance Process' your first problem area on both sides why don't both sides put more effort into making the process more effective for all?
I think it is as much a technology issue as anything else. Too much was vested in the holy grail of technology in general and particularly computing power and the systems on a/c today (but designed so long ago) are no longer capable of coping. Until the a/c gets a new architecture, it is limited. There is only so much jam you can get into your jar.
Last edited by Safeware; 8th Mar 2005 at 22:40.
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Tarnished,
You asked "Just how quickly can jam be made?"
Perhaps our current situation is that we have some very expensive jam that took far longer to make than we expected but it still cannot be spread to any good effect. Yes, it is very good to work with and offers far superior performance than the usual makers product but it is still damn all use on toast.
You asked "Just how quickly can jam be made?"
Perhaps our current situation is that we have some very expensive jam that took far longer to make than we expected but it still cannot be spread to any good effect. Yes, it is very good to work with and offers far superior performance than the usual makers product but it is still damn all use on toast.
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Tarnished
Methinks you are mistaken! Service Modifications are alive and well, and an accepted part of the equation.
Untrue. As long as risk has been reduced iaw ALARP (As Low As Reasonably Practical) then the aircraft / mod / weapon is likely to be accepted and gain Release to Service. This is applied on a case by case basis, and common sense is applied. QQ are used to offer independent advice, but it is up to the Service to decide whether to accept DA advice, QQ, other 3rd party reports. If needs must, then the Service may also disregard any or all of the above, but accepts that final liability rests with the Service. I appreciate there are many who are \'risk averse\' out there, but there are also many who use that finest of gifts, common sense. These may be in QQ, BAES or the military. Please don\'t \'tarnish\' all with the same brush (pun intended). Ultimately we do have to balance operational need with risk. That is what we do, whether it is bringing an aircraft into Service, or planning our 4-ship attack.
By the way, it does go like the absolute proverbial sh%t off a shovel!!!!! Just a shame it can\'t hover!
"We\'ll MOD the aircraft at our own risk" I think NOT!
The end result being, that unless the jet comes with a cast iron warranty, backed up by mountains of evidence in accordance with every known standard under the sun its just not going to crack it through the entry into service route. This is the main area that Q have been fulfilling in behalf of the MOD.
By the way, it does go like the absolute proverbial sh%t off a shovel!!!!! Just a shame it can\'t hover!
It would seem to me that almost 95% of those who slag off the Typhoon have never even seen one let alone flown it and that they believe all the bo110cks and hype published about the a/c and programme. I am not a pilot, but I have seen one (in the wild) and I think it the canines cahoonies. If half of what we hear from those in the know (Tarnished, maxburner et al) then hey...lets celebrate!! They cant and wont tell you every single + thing about the kit.
I dont drink JD, but I may have had a few too many pimms'
I dont drink JD, but I may have had a few too many pimms'
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Anyway lets get this thread back to the very important topic of bantering Navs, afterall, this aircraft ensures their ultimate demise
Please let me fly one.............I remember all the hype at IOT and BFJT, "you guys will be perfectly timed for ab initio Typhoon slots".....hmmmm maybe my grandkids will be
Regards
Please let me fly one.............I remember all the hype at IOT and BFJT, "you guys will be perfectly timed for ab initio Typhoon slots".....hmmmm maybe my grandkids will be
Regards