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Racism & Bigotry in the UK Armed Forces

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Racism & Bigotry in the UK Armed Forces

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Old 29th Jan 2005, 14:50
  #21 (permalink)  

Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
 
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Angel

The problem as I see it, is that the media of today is actively generating hatred. A large proportion of the stories are sensationalised to discredit the Government and sections of the community that the media barons dislike.

Take immigration, yes we do have a serious problem that needs sorting but we are a long way from the rivers of blood that some news sources would suggest. To suggest that Michael Howard is a racist for daring to suggest solutions is outrageous.

It is the same with the rail industry. The railways have improved beyond belief since the mid 90's but you wouldn't know that from the press. There is never any good news reported in the press!! Every road traffic accident at a level crossing is a train crash!! I don't think so!!

The Forces are just not flavour of the month any more and you will have to endure much more of the negative reporting. That's the price to be paid for taking part in a disastrous and some would argue, illegal war. A war which will continue long after tomorrows elections.

Door

I have witnessed racism with the RAF but it is individuals who are racist NOT the service. It's the same out here only much worse I can assure you.

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Old 29th Jan 2005, 15:22
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I can say with hand on heart I never saw one example of racism in my 25 years in the job.

Bigotry yes I did, but only from Scottish fans who could not decide whether they hated the English more than the "other" teams fans, the other side of Glasgow

What I did see rearing its ugly head toward the end, was Positive Discrimination

Sad but very true.
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Old 29th Jan 2005, 16:19
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Just referring back to my thread-starter, I have had little contact at work with racists or bigots, but then, they may not often get an opportunity to show themselves as such (maybe only in a social environment). My point was that these individuals seem to post on PPRuNe. Their views are clear and can only be described as disgraceful. As for the media, if they get hold of the sort of claptrap posted by these bigots...

A lot of the arguments on both sides are well considered and make sense.

Such a shame that it is the minority who post the cr@p that stands out



Al
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Old 30th Jan 2005, 01:24
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You Can Call Me Al


You must be <Insert racist comment> and a <insert bigotted comment> to be overly concerned about what people post on an anoymous forum. (That is a joke) People on here may or may not be who they say they are, so it\'s not really fair to take these posts as gospel and apply them to the UK MoD.

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Old 30th Jan 2005, 08:30
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Red face

YCCMA

You bigot! Just because your views are different from those who post here they are (racist) bigots?!?! I do not agree with your view point, to me it's far too pink and fluffy, but I will defend your right to have an opinion and to express it publicly - whether I agree with it or not!

If people wish to post, on an anonymous forum, and express there own (deeply held?) views that is their right as well. What I hate about this government is that they are attempting to criminalise certain view points. That means that you and I and everyone else lose the right of free speech!

A democratic society must be allowed to express the full range of views and to DEBATE them publicly. If Michael Howard is accused of being a racist, or for playing the "race card", or just for daring to challenge the sacred cow of immigration then that is only right and proper in a democratic society. If he is called a racist for doing so shows the moral vacuum that the pink and fluffies (liberal - allegedly - intellectuals) actually live in!! And also shows their utter bigotry as well. If certain papers use immigration to sell news papers and the public buy them then that is their business. For all the sensationalist stories there must be a grain of truth. After all as Beags pointed out playing conkers at school has been banned by a number of schools. At others pupils do have to wear safety goggles. PC gone mad!

Back to the original thread. The only real racism I have witnessed during my time in, was inflicted on a white bloke by a black woman. In my (very personal) view, most people in the RAF do not look at the colour of someone's skin, rather how professional they are. If you are professional then you are part of the team, if you are a slacker, then black, white, yellow or purple you will be the subject to much (deserved?) banter. If the cap fits........

As for the media, if they get hold of the sort of claptrap posted by these bigots...
Hmmm. For someone who has just registered but criticises so freely do I smell a journo fishing???????

Rant Off
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Old 30th Jan 2005, 08:40
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Racism in Society

A few months ago I was travelling on the underground just after rush hour when this well-dressed drunk boarded the carriage and let off a string of racist invective at the passengers, most of whom were black business types. What shocked me was the reactions of the passengers - they buried their heads deeper into their books and magazines, and pretended to ignore him. It was clear by the body language that such verbal attacks were not uncommon. I cheerfully pushed the uncouth gentleman off at the next stop, gently inviting him to have a go at me, if he felt the need to take the matter further.

At the next station, one of the passengers alighted and said, 'he'll be worse next time', and gave me an admonishing stare.

A small and perhaps irrelevant anecdote, however indicative that racist attitudes are still to be found in Society. However, I have never encountered institutional racism in the Services based on skin colour, but there are still institutional barriers based on nationality which I find abhorent.

Several years ago, I was invited to renounce my commonwealth nationality on the grounds of 'allied security concerns'. The matter was dropped when my solicitor pointed out that would, therefore, require me to rescind subjectcy, ie by renouncing HM the Queen as head of State of the place of my birth. The Innsworth response was - 'well you can't expect us to investigate all these cases'. The Solicitor pointed out that they had a duty of care to do so, and their tune changed when it was stated 'so you descriminate against Polynesians by omission, then? The impugnation against my character was withdrawn, an appology was issued and my Subjectcy remained unchanged. I was, at the time, also a holder of a British Passport which the Service had paid for.

I happily now reside in academia and have never found any racism, institutional or otherwise, in a community that has roots in the 13th Century. Multiculturalism is alive and well, and has made Britain a richer place in so many respects.

CC
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Old 30th Jan 2005, 14:50
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THE gorilla wrote:

The Forces are just not flavour of the month any more and you will have to endure much more of the negative reporting. That's the price to be paid for taking part in a disastrous and some would argue, illegal war. A war which will continue long after tomorrows elections.
Whilst many might hold the forces responsible they should remember that it was those who voted for Bliar that are to blame and those who will vote for him again in the next election will compound the felony. The forces fight as ordered by the government and their leaders took great care prior to this war to ensure that the government acted legally.
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Old 30th Jan 2005, 17:38
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What you have to realise is that 'political correctness' and 'equal opportunities' are big business these days. The number of people employed in this field is quite staggering, and the money our pathetic politicians throw at this 'cause' is obscene.

If all was rosy, then these armies of tree hugging, yogurt knitting liberals would have to seek honest employment elsewhere...SO... it is in their interest to continually convince us that we are all racist, bigotted scum, and to convince minorities that they are being victimised by society, the polive, the Forces etc etc.

I don't deny their are racist people in our society (and remember it works both ways) - however I am totally convinced that 'institutional racism' is a myth these people create to justify their own pampered existence.

The true disgrace is positive discrimination which is becoming the norm as people fear the racist/bigot labels that are constantly dished out.
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Old 31st Jan 2005, 13:08
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It's not often I actually post anything here (well - never, actually), but this issue does interest me, since I sit every day in a crewroom with friends and colleagues, all of us tarred by the tabloid media and low-brow TV programmes as being racist, Right-wing bigots. Bullies, thugs, etc etc.

I don't care whether I am fed, followed, led or protected by men or women, black, white, yellow, green, red, or turquoise. It's their professionalism that makes them people worth serving with.

On the other hand, the very few bigots who have attacked me (I am openly gay) have been supremely difficult people to work with - and that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of other people who listen to their ignorant ranting. These individuals do not represent the Air Force, and it is folly to claim that a few isolated cases of racism/sexism/homophobia indicate a widespread problem. The challenge for all of us is not to whisper about how unpleasent some people are, but to stand up to them and use every means at our disposal to remove their demoralising whingeing and bullying. It comes down to an issue as simple as following rules & regs - lest we forget, Equal Opps is enshrined in Service and Civil Law, so we're all obliged to stick to it.

For all the talk of tree-hugging, I don't think the RAF subscribes to that. EO (or is it E&D now?) is a legal requirement, the Service has no option but to teach it. Sure, sometimes it is patronising, but I recently attended the most entertaining E&D lecture I've seen - some instructors actually give a st about E&D. People who care about working in a Service that puts the best individual into a job, regardless of race, etc, care about E&D because it helps ensure that no-one feels excluded or disadvantaged for a trait over which they have no control. Which, incidentally, is why I never answer ethnic monitoring surveys!

And now... I'll lapse back into silence.
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Old 18th Feb 2005, 21:28
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CClash:
"A few months ago I was travelling on the underground just after rush hour when this well-dressed drunk boarded the carriage and let off a string of racist invective at the passengers, most of whom were black business types. What shocked me was the reactions of the passengers - they buried their heads deeper into their books and magazines, and pretended to ignore him. It was clear by the body language that such verbal attacks were not uncommon. I cheerfully pushed the uncouth gentleman off at the next stop, gently inviting him to have a go at me, if he felt the need to take the matter further."

I hate to be brutally honest, here, but most people wont get involved in this kind of situation, for fear of a knife being pulled out on them for stating their objection. THis isn't a scare story, but merely the state of our society today. I dont think I would have said anything either, if it was words being said (when it would come to physical violence, I would get off at next stop and report to the train staff), and unless anyone else on here was 6'3", stacked and surrounded by 5 mates, Idont think JOe Bloggs Public would say anything either.

Am I right?

I saw a womans hand bag - all her important possessions like credit cards, house keys, mobile, address book, important phone numbers, drycleaning receipts contained within - tore right rom her shoulder by a young man, who she proceeded to run after screaming for help, but who stopped? No-one, thats right. Sad as it is, its the world of today.
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Old 18th Feb 2005, 22:34
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I take your point that people are concerned about their own safety (and also by the fear - if not the reality - of prosecution or litigation by the object of your protestations), but the point of my story was not my heroic (!) intervention (stiffened by several pints after work) but by the apparent acquiesence by the targets of the abuse. I am 6'2" with a bad back (and an immigrant, whatever that might mean), but I agree that I should have reported the matter to station staff. Nonetheless, lack of action by the public doesn't make racism any more acceptable.

CC
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Old 19th Feb 2005, 10:43
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"The Royal Air Force has a hardcore element of Racist and bigots who continue to sow the seeds of white supremacy."

You utter w****r. Where is your proof? You come out with sh1t like that but give no instances.

In 16 years in the RAF I have had a wide variety of jobs and locations. Not once have I witnessed or heard of anyone being abused or discriminated against because of their colour or sexuality or what-bloody-ever. Nor would I tolerate it. I have been in Scotland, Wales and NI, and in each of those areas I have been abused by locals for being English, there, and stealing their jobs. Work that one out. What's your excuse for that crossbow?

Of course people have opinions, but the vast majority of us get on with it without insult when we work with people who aren't our cup of tea. That's our job after all. It's what being a professional instead of some whinging pontificating fluffy amateur is all about.

Statements like yours sunshine cause more trouble than they solve because you insult the majority. The Gorilla is correct in his view of the media and people like you fan the flames. Your head must be so far up your arse you probably have a glass stomach to see out of.

Rant over, hook withdrawn.
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Old 19th Feb 2005, 13:28
  #33 (permalink)  
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I have seen little or no evidence of racism or bigotry in recent years in the RAF.

However I and many others have recently endured the latest attempt at Equal Ops and Diversity Training in the form of the Garnet Foundation Forum Theatre.

If this poor attempt at making us all pink and fluffy is the best that is on offer to service personnel for equal ops training then we may well be heading for problems in the future.

Another fine waste of taxpayers money.
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Old 19th Feb 2005, 17:15
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Racism

Quote"racism and bigotry in the UK armed forces" What about the rest of UK society.For example... You have the "MOBO"awards. Music of Black Origin. Is there an award ceremony for the MOWO, Music of white origin...Or is that discriminatory against ethnic minority groups? I'm not a racist in any way, but there seem to be double standards in most areas!!
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Old 20th Feb 2005, 17:18
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Snapdragon's post reminded me of something that I was musing over yesterday morning. I turned on the TV to catch early morning news and weather and the announcer was a black lady, I caught two more BBC news broadcasts yesterday and the announcers were also from ethnic minorities.

Am I missing something here in Norfolk? Sure 10% of our population are non-white, despite not being too widespread in this part of East Anglia (and I frequently work with a charming Jamaican) are the Beeb not overcompensating in an affirmative action style.

When I went through IOT, I became firm friends with the only black guy on the course, an Olympic swimming medal winner! Over twenty years ago and I never heard a word that insulted his skin collar: his navigation skills, his leadership all came in for criticism but his hue was never an issue!

Wonder what he (PM) is doing now?

Stik
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Old 26th Feb 2005, 17:45
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OCTU, Henlow, circa 1978. Squadron consisted of approx 80 students. six of whom were SOAF and six WRAF. My Flight had neither in it. Opening address from Flt Cdr on day one went something along the lines of "Gentlemen, consider how lucky you are, we've got no women and no coons in this flight." Cue nervous laughter.

In the end analysis some of the Omanis were rubbish, but that was only because it was an attendance course for them to go and chase girls in Luton. The others were great and though I never made it to Oman myself I have plenty of friends who had a great time there.

Moral of the tale, this Flt Cdr was an ignorant git who thought he was a smart arse and had a chip on his shoulder about having to be at OCTU. Was / is this endemic of a racist culture in the forces, no, but racism exists nonetheless, just as it does in society as a whole.
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Old 26th Feb 2005, 18:52
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Couldn't have put it better, JG.
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Old 27th Feb 2005, 20:18
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Cambridge Crash

I don't think CamTech is long enough established to publish its own English dictionary, so I suggest you try the one published by an institution founded by King Alfred the Great in the ninth Century. The OED does not recognise "subjectcy" or "impugnation", but offers "subjection" and "impugnment"as the appropriate nouns.

I really could not understand the point you were trying to make in your penultimate paragraph. I attested into the RAFVR in 1946 at OUAS when I held a NZ passport - which classed me as a British Subject. I was retrospectively denationalised by the Nationality Act of 1948, because both my father and I were born in India (he was a colonial administrator and his father an Army officer). I had to re-register as a British subject and in the fullness of time the RAF replaced my NZ passport with a standard British one. This never complicated security clearances. I never encountered any racism or bigotry in the RAF - certainly no more than at Oxford, which has had its moments in the past.

There was the legendary occasion before WW2 when a black gentleman rowed in the Balliol crew, the first time that an "ethnic" had taken part in Eights Week. Showing at the same time at the local cinema was the film "Saunders of the River", starring Paul Robeson, the splended black bass. Robeson sang a traditional African canoeing song as a crew of warriors paddled their war canoe down the river. Some wag shouted from the back of the theatre "Well rowed Balliol!"

Would that have been racism or banter? I certainly took much more stick as a "Pom" at school in NZ.
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Old 27th Feb 2005, 20:34
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19 years in (RAF). Agree completely with JG.

Ray
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Old 28th Feb 2005, 14:46
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Impugnation of Character

FV

Impugnation of character - QR(RAF) refer. Subjectcy - my UK Naturalisation certificate refers!

My concern was that the RAF, in spite of me have dual citizenship, insisted that I should renounce a Commonwealth citizenship - even though I was transferred as such 15 years earlier. The Nationality Act 1981 effectively closed the door for right of residency (not the same as nationality) on Commonwealth 'subject' if they were not born in the UK. For the decision to reject Commonwealth personnel (the letter included dire threats to one's career, such as transfer to less sensitive ie non-flying appointments or release) made by a relatively low-grade civil servant - albeit based on advice from the Centre - within PMA is unacceptable. It was all the more untenable when PMA admitted that they had not researched the 400-odd cases in similar circumstances. Ultimately I received an unreserved appology because of 'an oversight'; this, however, required me to engage a solicitor and to confront the 'powers that be' in a means that would normally be prejudicial to a future career.

BTW, I am a banksman for a college crew for Lent Bumps (being too old and knackered to row) and in spite of Cambridge being a multi-ethnic community, rowing seems to be the preserve of white middle class ex public school boys & girls. I hasten to add that they are a good bunch and the boat clubs go out of their way to improve 'access'; this call is hardly heeded by visible ethnic minorities. Might also be something to do with the 0615 starts....chipping ice off the landings!
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